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prince zachary

did jesus really know what it's like to be "human"?

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Is that the coclusion you drew from what I said?

Touche, the River, touche :)

Zachary, I was trying to employ logic for the sake of clarity. I suppose you'd rather that I use colloquialisms, profanity, and CAPSLOCK to make my point. Silly me, I had forgotten that those are the surest ways to discover or prove that which is true.

I will give you an immensely charitable read on this and just say that you don't like all the technical details I have been mentioning. Let me put it to you in terms that you can understand. You made a rather bold assertion, upon which your entire question rests. This assertion was that it is not possible that any human being could know that God exists. You then questioned the Christian claim that Jesus knows what it is like to be human, since he knew that God exists. I tried to tell you that the Christian is un-phased by your question because she denies your assertion that it is not possible that any human being could know that God exists. Then, I tried to ask you why you believe your assertion to be true. You really didn't answer me. So I tried to see what in your earlier posts might have given rise to this assertion of yours. Still, I cannot see from where it comes.

So you want me to just answer your question. You mean, the one in the thread title? Simply put, yes. There is your answer. In addition, I have tried to help you to see how a Christian might answer the question in the thread title in the affirmative while still being consistent in her beliefs.

If you honestly want some arguments for the existence of God (I highly doubt that you really do), then go here, here, and here.

Or, here is one in brief. Whatever begins to exist has a cause. The universe began to exist. Thus, the universe has a cause. This cause is what we call "God."

Zachary, you said, "of course i cant "prove" that its impossible for a human to know god exists, but i'll bet you 5,000,000 that NO ONE can prove he DOES exist, therefor indirectly proving me right." This is not true, however. Even if we were to grant that no one CAN PROVE something, that does not entail that no one CAN KNOW that thing. I don't have to be able to prove a thing to somebody in order for me to know it. I know that I am composing these responses, yet I cannot prove that to you. I would imagine that the evidence you have is consistent with these responses being typed by a highly advanced computer program, so I doubt I am going to be able to prove to you that I have written them. Still, I know that I've written them. Thus, EVEN IF a person is not able to prove something to another person, it is still possible that the first person knows that thing. Perhaps the same is the case with God. It seems that John Doe's knowing that God exists is consistent with his being unable to prove that God exists. That is, it is possible that someone should know that God exists yet be unable to prove to that God exists.

Still, most theists think that there are good reasons to believe that God exists. Whether this qualifies as what you are thinking of as proof, I don't know.

Let's think of an alternate but similar issue. I bet that those who think the moon landing was a hoax would like you to think that no one can prove that the moon landing actually occurred as the US government claims it occurred. Since these skeptics tend to have some kind of answers for pretty much any of the evidence NASA might provide, let's just grant them their claim that no on can prove that the moon landing actually occurred. Even if this is true, Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong KNOW that the moon landing occurred. So, it is possible for somebody to know a thing even if it cannot be proven in a way that will convince all the skeptics.

This is getting far afoul of the thread topic though. It appears that you are trying to show some inconsistency in Christian theology, yet I really don't see it. Can you tease it out better or explain it some other way?

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i really hope you aren't christian, if so, you're one fucking pompous dick of a christian assuming stupid shit. "real" christians are humble, and arent quick to attack someone for asking a QUESTION.

Actually, I do believe in Jesus Christ. I apologize if I hurt your little feelings, but you seemed like you were tough enough to take a little ribbing. Guess not!

so far, no one has proven they know more than i do.

rolleyes.gif

, im just saying no one has said anything intelligent yet

That's certainly not true. I think you have an intelligent question, and there have been intelligent answers, but the majority of things in this thread that dip below what I would consider intelligent are coming from you. You do realize that an intelligent argument usually doesn't consist of "ARE U FUCKIN RETARDED?121EKJDHKLHFD" or "Gawsh I'm not reading that."

1.) i never said doubting god was what makes us human, i merely said that all human beings (at least the majority of intelligent ones) are confused as to their purpose on earth, and are all (deep down) unsure if there is truly a higher power or not (you're stupid if you think people dont doubt their 'faith')

Yes, I would say all human beings experience doubt. The one exception is Jesus Christ. He experienced being human, but not doubt.

2.) jesus DID NOT experience what it meant to not know his purpose or whether he was truly alone in the universe, so i feel jesus did not get the full human experience. can you really say there is a human being out there who doesnt long to know why we are here? jesus knew for a FACT why he and all of us were here, therefor i feel he did not truly experience what it is to be a human being.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. I agree with this too. Jesus did not come for the human experience, though. Jesus came to show us a perfect sinless life. Because of original sin, humans are separated from God. So Jesus could never truly experience humanity as we experienced it, separated from God (because he is God). Which is certainly not a normal human experience. I assume we can you can agree with this?

basically it's like me going to work with kids who had horrible childhoods/no parents growing up. i didnt have that, so i could never TRULY understand what they went through. i could help encourage them to be good people and give them self-esteem and love them, but i could NEVER know what they dealt with, therefor i could never really judge them if they acted a certain way i didnt understand. just like jesus has no idea what its like to wonder why he was born, to wonder if there is a god up above, etc. what dont you understand about this? i am in awe that this is such a hard topic to understand. is that not the whole fucking basis of "philosophy"?!

I thought you knew more about Christianity. I guess you should look at this as a chance to learn. One of the tenants of Christianity is that God is all knowing. He doesn't necessarily have to experience something to know it or understand it, but whether God understands our plight or not is irrelevant because.....

3.) god DOESNT judge people off of whether they believed in him? well, i guess i misunderstood the bible when jesus said the only way to the father was through him... I APOLOGIZE FOR THAT ONE. sorry for the misunderstanding!

Good, I am glad you can see that you actually DID misunderstand it. Now that we've both established that, we can maybe get somewhere. If you can provide a verse where God explicitly judges people based on whether they believe in him that would be great.

The verse you're referring to means that in order to meet with God and be with God, we must accept Jesus's salvation. It doesn't mention judgement at all. Judgement is something completely different than salvation. Jesus's sacrifice is what saves us from judgement. (I feel like I've said this before, oh wait I did but for some reason you seem to not be reading my posts. Oh well, guess I will just put everything important in giant bold letters to make sure you see it this time.)

God judges us based on sin. Always has, always will. (If you want some verses that indicate this, go read my last post.)

Unfortunately, we will never ever ever pass this judgement.

Fortunately, God sent Jesus to bear the burden for us.

Again, this is a basic tenant of scripture, and Christianity in general, and seems to be the crux of your misunderstanding. God doesn't look at us to see who believes in him. He looks at us to see if we have sinned. If we believe in Jesus, and accept his sacrifice, we get a free pass.

dude, drew willy, dont fucking gimme your stupid ass college debate class bullshit. if you wanna respond in my thread, respond like a fucking human, not a robot. i'll gladly listen to any reply you want, but stop with these stupid math equations. you look like pretentious asshole and you arent making any points. do you actually have something to add to the discussion, or do you just wanna show off your stupid debate skills. i bet you 10 bucks you couldnt respond like a normal human being. its so pathetic. you guys are jokes. just answer my fucking question, jesus christ.

He was using logical formula. Logic? You don't want logic? Are you content to accept all of your claims on faith alone?

but really, how fucking stupid are you? of course i cant "prove" that its impossible for a human to know god exists, but i'll bet you 5,000,000 that NO ONE can prove he DOES exist, therefor indirectly proving me right. how about that? are we cool? ok.

How does this work? No one has proven that God exist, therefore no one ever will? That's like saying "No one can prove that aliens exist, so no one ever will." SRSLY HOW STUPID R U!?!?!

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Touche, the River, touche :)

Zachary, I was trying to employ logic for the sake of clarity. I suppose you'd rather that I use colloquialisms, profanity, and CAPSLOCK to make my point. Silly me, I had forgotten that those are the surest ways to discover or prove that which is true.

I will give you an immensely charitable read on this and just say that you don't like all the technical details I have been mentioning. Let me put it to you in terms that you can understand. You made a rather bold assertion, upon which your entire question rests. This assertion was that it is not possible that any human being could know that God exists. You then questioned the Christian claim that Jesus knows what it is like to be human, since he knew that God exists. I tried to tell you that the Christian is un-phased by your question because she denies your assertion that it is not possible that any human being could know that God exists. Then, I tried to ask you why you believe your assertion to be true. You really didn't answer me. So I tried to see what in your earlier posts might have given rise to this assertion of yours. Still, I cannot see from where it comes.

So you want me to just answer your question. You mean, the one in the thread title? Simply put, yes. There is your answer. In addition, I have tried to help you to see how a Christian might answer the question in the thread title in the affirmative while still being consistent in her beliefs.

If you honestly want some arguments for the existence of God (I highly doubt that you really do), then go here, here, and here.

Or, here is one in brief. Whatever begins to exist has a cause. The universe began to exist. Thus, the universe has a cause. This cause is what we call "God."

Zachary, you said, "of course i cant "prove" that its impossible for a human to know god exists, but i'll bet you 5,000,000 that NO ONE can prove he DOES exist, therefor indirectly proving me right." This is not true, however. Even if we were to grant that no one CAN PROVE something, that does not entail that no one CAN KNOW that thing. I don't have to be able to prove a thing to somebody in order for me to know it. I know that I am composing these responses, yet I cannot prove that to you. I would imagine that the evidence you have is consistent with these responses being typed by a highly advanced computer program, so I doubt I am going to be able to prove to you that I have written them. Still, I know that I've written them. Thus, EVEN IF a person is not able to prove something to another person, it is still possible that the first person knows that thing. Perhaps the same is the case with God. It seems that John Doe's knowing that God exists is consistent with his being unable to prove that God exists. That is, it is possible that someone should know that God exists yet be unable to prove to that God exists.

Still, most theists think that there are good reasons to believe that God exists. Whether this qualifies as what you are thinking of as proof, I don't know.

Let's think of an alternate but similar issue. I bet that those who think the moon landing was a hoax would like you to think that no one can prove that the moon landing actually occurred as the US government claims it occurred. Since these skeptics tend to have some kind of answers for pretty much any of the evidence NASA might provide, let's just grant them their claim that no on can prove that the moon landing actually occurred. Even if this is true, Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong KNOW that the moon landing occurred. So, it is possible for somebody to know a thing even if it cannot be proven in a way that will convince all the skeptics.

This is getting far afoul of the thread topic though. It appears that you are trying to show some inconsistency in Christian theology, yet I really don't see it. Can you tease it out better or explain it some other way?

well, holy shit. i feel like im a freshman/sophomore in high school again. chillin on the thrice boards reading debates with "anreizen." are you anreizen?????

im sorry to tell you that nothing you said really holds any weight. you seem to be trying to logically prove the existence of god, which is something ANY christian will tell you is impossible. this is where faith comes in. i am shocked you havent put this together yet.

I tried to tell you that the Christian is un-phased by your question because she denies your assertion that it is not possible that any human being could know that God exists. Then, I tried to ask you why you believe your assertion to be true. You really didn't answer me. So I tried to see what in your earlier posts might have given rise to this assertion of yours. Still, I cannot see from where it comes.

you're living in a dreamworld, buddy. i dont know any christian who would have the balls to say "i know for a fact this is true." yes, maybe the first time you asked them, but if you kept digging deeper into their beliefs, i guarantee you will end up with, "well, actually, i really have no way to prove this... i just believe in it..." because there is NO way to prove it. if there was some way to prove it, faith would have no point.

So you want me to just answer your question. You mean, the one in the thread title? Simply put, yes. There is your answer. In addition, I have tried to help you to see how a Christian might answer the question in the thread title in the affirmative while still being consistent in her beliefs.

that's funny! "The River" just disagreed with you above. wanna see?

me: 2.) jesus DID NOT experience what it meant to not know his purpose or whether he was truly alone in the universe, so i feel jesus did not get the full human experience. can you really say there is a human being out there who doesnt long to know why we are here? jesus knew for a FACT why he and all of us were here, therefor i feel he did not truly experience what it is to be a human being.

The River: Okay, now we're getting somewhere. I agree with this too. Jesus did not come for the human experience, though. Jesus came to show us a perfect sinless life. Because of original sin, humans are separated from God. So Jesus could never truly experience humanity as we experienced it, separated from God (because he is God). Which is certainly not a normal human experience. I assume we can you can agree with this?

well shit, this makes things complicated! the two people trying to "logically" bust my balls cant even agree with each other!

i'm not going to address your "Whatever begins to exist has a cause. The universe began to exist. Thus, the universe has a cause. This cause is what we call "God."" because thats not the purpose of this thread. i came in here asking a question, a very simple one, and then you guys come in trying to prove the existence of god. this is not what i asked, nor would this go anywhere but circles. hey i can prove god is real too, though... you know air? why do u believe in air bro? air .... u cant see it.. how u know its real bro? u just gotta belief in it bro its real...

ok sorry jk

but for real "Whatever begins to exist has a cause. The universe began to exist. Thus, the universe has a cause. This cause is what we call "God." that's really stupid. you're trying to prove "god" is real, but that has nothing to do with christianity. that just means at some point, some "god" character created the world. that does not imply he is loving, still intervening with us, or gives a shit at all. that just implies "something" created us. OOOH lemme guess what comes next... some Lee Strobel books to prove christianity is the most sound and logical religion? ooooh never read those before!! wait ive read them all, actually! how weird.

Actually, I do believe in Jesus Christ. I apologize if I hurt your little feelings, but you seemed like you were tough enough to take a little ribbing. Guess not!

you didnt "hurt my feelings." do you know who you're talking to? i've withstood more shit-talking than probably everyone on these boards per capita. i'm not offended by you at all. i hate to say it, but i was more saddened by your misrepresenting your savior. i know christians arent perfect, but its hard to have respect for christianity with people like you pushing it. the christians that make the biggest "dents" or "ripples" are the ones who are not quick to attack or judge, but the ones who are calm, and answer questions without letting emotions get in the way. you just look like some little kid on a message board who WANTS to be right, as opposed to someone who believes in jesus that wants to spread his love and message. just saying... you might wanna pick up that millstone... ;) sorry to jab you so hard, but if what i said doesnt burn in your heart, you have some serious thinking to do...

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Mark Driscoll has a number of free podcasts where he talks directly about the humanity of Jesus, and just how he could have been both God AND human.

Podcast, click the link and scroll down, it's the Best Of: How Human Was Jesus?: http://rss.marshillc.../mhcsermonaudio

Just found this video, I'm not vouching for it's content cause I haven't watched it, though I highly recommend the podcast:

http://www.marshillc...human-was-jesus

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hhahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah holy fuck. no way. you did not just do that. mark driscoll?!?!?!? i am shitting my pants and throwing up all over myself from laughing so hard.

ok holy moley i am done.

for real though.... theres real humans who thinks this dude is legit? this dude is a lunatic.

where is beanz? beanz!!!! this dude just posted mark driscoll!!!!!!!! im gettin beanz right now brb he has to see this

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Mark Driscoll has a number of free podcasts where he talks directly about the humanity of Jesus, and just how he could have been both God AND human.

Podcast, click the link and scroll down, it's the Best Of: How Human Was Jesus?: http://rss.marshillc.../mhcsermonaudio

Just found this video, I'm not vouching for it's content cause I haven't watched it, though I highly recommend the podcast:

http://www.marshillc...human-was-jesus

i apologize for laughing hysterically at your reply, i know that was rude, but this dudes insane. ive watched a lot of his stuff on youtube. he's straight bonkers. anyways, thanks for trying to add something to the discussion, but ive already read about how jesus was both god and human at the same time, thats not the point im trying to make. my only question has been asked about 50 times, with various people trying to distort what im trying to say into their own agenda.

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im sorry to tell you that nothing you said really holds any weight.

This is great news! Care to expand on that? Or are you content to just say "Nuh uh!"

you seem to be trying to logically prove the existence of god, which is something ANY christian will tell you is impossible. this is where faith comes in. i am shocked you havent put this together yet.

I don't think any Christian would tell you it's impossible to prove the existence of God. Maybe it hasn't been proven enough to satisfy all skeptics, but I think a lot of Christians are learning that logic/reasoning/science actually point towards a creator.

Faith is belief in something silly like "Oh something can come from nothing." Now, THAT'S a leap of faith.

you're living in a dreamworld, buddy. i dont know any christian who would have the balls to say "i know for a fact this is true." yes, maybe the first time you asked them, but if you kept digging deeper into their beliefs, i guarantee you will end up with, "well, actually, i really have no way to prove this... i just believe in it..." because there is NO way to prove it. if there was some way to prove it, faith would have no point.

There's plenty of evidence for it though, maybe not proof enough to satisfy all skeptics. But then again there isn't proof that God doesn't exist either (or much evidence to support that case for that matter), so I guess atheists have to have a little faith that they're right too.

that's funny! "The River" just disagreed with you above. wanna see?

well shit, this makes things complicated! the two people trying to "logically" bust my balls cant even agree with each other!

Hmm, that's a stretch. His claim seems to be, "Yes, God did experience being human." My claim is "Yes, God did experience being human, but without all the sin/doubt/purposelessness "

You'll have to ask drew if he agree with the second half of my sentence.

but for real "Whatever begins to exist has a cause. The universe began to exist. Thus, the universe has a cause. This cause is what we call "God." that's really stupid. you're trying to prove "god" is real, but that has nothing to do with christianity. that just means at some point, some "god" character created the world. that does not imply he is loving, still intervening with us, or gives a shit at all. that just implies "something" created us. OOOH lemme guess what comes next... some Lee Strobel books to prove christianity is the most sound and logical religion? ooooh never read those before!! wait ive read them all, actually! how weird.

Does this mean that you believe that the arguments for a Creator are sound? Do you believe in a Creator?

you didnt "hurt my feelings." do you know who you're talking to?

Sorry, just seemed like you got a little wad in your panties.

i hate to say it, but i was more saddened by your misrepresenting your savior. i know christians arent perfect, but its hard to have respect for christianity with people like you pushing it. the christians that make the biggest "dents" or "ripples" are the ones who are not quick to attack or judge, but the ones who are calm, and answer questions without letting emotions get in the way. you just look like some little kid on a message board who WANTS to be right, as opposed to someone who believes in jesus that wants to spread his love and message. just saying... you might wanna pick up that millstone... ;) sorry to jab you so hard, but if what i said doesnt burn in your heart, you have some serious thinking to do...

I already said I was sorry that I hurt your feelings. If I didn't, then why are you making such a big deal about it. Like I said, I only ribbed you cause I thought you could take it. Now I know you can't, so I'll be a little more "christian" towards you if you would like. Haha.

I guess this debate will go around in circles until:

1. You can understand the basic beliefs of the worldview you are presupposing in your original question.

2. You accept that reasoning and logic (as opposed to blind faith) are valid ways to seek the truth.

Good luck, and let me know when you figure at least one of these out, hopefully both.

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so im confused, do you believe in other conspiracy theories, too, or just christianity? im just wondering if you pick and choose your logic to fit your agenda, or if you actually follow what you say. by your standards, any crack pot theory is prove-able, its just that the proof doesnt mean people are gonna believe it.

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For whatever reason, the HTML is getting screwed up on this one.

Perhaps this will be my last response in here.

Zachary, you said,

"you seem to be trying to logically prove the existence of god, which is something ANY christian will tell you is impossible. this is where faith comes in. i am shocked you havent put this together yet."

Zachary, I am afraid you must have misunderstood the point of my first couple of posts. Neither were intended to logically prove the existence of god. You really need to read more carefully. These responses on my part indicated that your reasoning relied on the premise that it is not possible for any human being to know that God exists. These posts also called into question this premise of yours and indicated that Christians would not be inclined to believe it. Furthermore, in writing those two posts I sought to elicit from you your reasons for believing this premise. I still don't think you have given any good reasons for believing this. Your response has basically been "If people could know that God exists, there would be no place for faith, so it cannot be possible for any human being to know that God exists." I have challenged this claim of yours and indicated that well respected Christian thinkers including John Calvin, Thomas Aquinas, and CS Lewis would deny this. I don't want to sound pretentious, but I am afraid that the truth of the matter is that you have misunderstood what Christian theology teaches.

You said,

"you're living in a dreamworld, buddy. i dont know any christian who would have the balls to say "i know for a fact this is true." yes, maybe the first time you asked them, but if you kept digging deeper into their beliefs, i guarantee you will end up with, "well, actually, i really have no way to prove this... i just believe in it..." because there is NO way to prove it. if there was some way to prove it, faith would have no point."

Sorry to say it, but I think any Christian who is unwilling to say that she knows that God exists or that Christian theology is true is either confused as to the tenets of Christianity or simply holds her religious beliefs rather weakly. Sometimes that happens. Sometimes people believe a thing but not all that strongly, as in they are not all that sure that their belief is correct and it would be easy to convince them of its falsity. For example, I believe rather weakly that the RA on my floor during my freshman year of college was named Joey. That is, I think that is true, but it is possible that someone might convince me otherwise, because I don't really remember too well.

Belief in the existence of God or belief in the tenets of Christianity (ANY religious beliefs, for that matter) ought to require the same level of justification that any other belief does. If Christians believe the claims of Christianity without any justification for believing them, then that is simply irrational. I have absolutely no doubt that there are Christians in the world (a lot of them, actually) who believe the claims of Christianity in this very way and thus are irrational. They believe something that happens to be true even though they lack any justification for thinking it is true. That is just dumb luck. THAT is not knowledge. However, this does not prove that it is impossible for someone to know that God exists.

Again, I will repeat what I have said before, you simply have misunderstood the role of faith in Christianity. No worries, as a simple search of wikipedia will correct this. When Christians discuss "faith" they are generally not talking about a belief that lacks justification. Nor are they talking about a belief that flies in the face of reason. Now, many Christians might not be able to prove to an atheist that God exists. So, what of it? Plenty of relatively uneducated people believe scientific ideas that they would not be able to prove to a skeptic (special relativity, quantum mechanics, the notion that moving faster than the speed of light would cause an object to move backwards through time, etc.). I KNOW that Fermat's Last Theorem is true, even though I could not prove it to you if you asked me to do so. So, there are things that can be known even if one given person can not prove such a thing to another given person.

You said,

"'The River' just disagreed with you above"

I am not sure I understood what The River said in the portion that you quoted, but if The River doesn't believe that Jesus was human or if The River doesn't believe that Jesus really knew what it was like to be human, then I would disagree with him or her. When I look at The River's most recent posts, I think he or she (which is it?, it gets annoying including both) and I are generally in agreement on this point though.

Jesus was human, this is one thing Christians have always believed. Skeptics have usually believed it too, they just usually didn't accept the part about him also being God. If Jesus was human, then he knew what it was like to be human. That much seems to be pretty obvious. For whatever reason, you think that Jesus' knowledge of God invalidates his knowing what it is like to be human; this, I think is simply wrong. I know you believe this partly because you think religion involves faith rather than, and IN CONTRAST TO, knowledge, but a Christian need not agree with you on this (and many, if not most, Christians would not agree with you on this). You seem to think that part of the very essence of being a human being is questioning your position in the universe or the existence of God. I doubt that this is the very essence of being a human being (even if most or all humans do this, it does not mean that it is the essence of what it is to be human). I think that there could be a human being who did not experience these existential crises or theological wonderings. I think that is at least possible. In an earlier post you said you were supposing that the Bible was true. Well, if that is the case, then you must suppose that the first two human beings had a rather intimate knowledge of God prior to The Fall. So, it seems like the Bible presupposes that human beings can know that God exists. Or would you want to suggest that Adam and Eve also did not know what it is like to be human? Or how about Isaiah, did he also not know what it is like to be human?

In the end, I wonder to what extent the Christian religion even demands that Jesus share our human experiences. Zachary, your original post claimed that if God does not know what it is like to be human, he has no place to judge humans. If that is true, then the Incarnation of Jesus is required not only as a means to redemption and salvation, but also as a means to judgment. I don't think the Christian church has ever taught this, nor do I see why Reason would suggest this. Most judges in criminal court cases do not know what it is like to be a criminal, yet we think these judges fit to judge the criminals. Why should God need to know what it is like to be human in order to judge us?

Zachary, you said in your post that the question of whether or not God exists has nothing to do with Christianity. That is rather laughable, seeing that Christianity involves a set of beliefs, one of which is that there is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God who created the world. If Theism is false, then Christianity is false a fortiori. If there is no God, then Christianity is flat-out wrong. Your further comments about apologetics are not really relevant as I have not come here to prove to you that Christianity is true. Rather, I sought to show that Christian theology is not inconsistent in the way that you have claimed that it is.

In short, the fact that Jesus knew that God exists does not discredit his knowing what it it is like to be human. Furthermore, even if he did not know what it was like to be human, this does not entail that God has no right to judge humans. Unless you want to give some reasons for, or arguments in support of, your claims, I don't think there is any more I can really say to you about this matter.

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Just to clarify something that seems to be causing confusion between both sides:

1. According to scripture, God judges people according to their actions and sin. By this judgment, everyone is on their way to Hell.

Zachary: This is what The River was referring to when he disagreed with your statement that we're judged by belief.

2. According to scripture, the only way people can avoid Hell is if they are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

The River: This is what Zachary was really referring to when he said people are judged based on their belief in God. However confusedly he put it.

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As to your original post Zachary, I'll try to answer a few things.

The main gist of your idea seems to hinge on the notion that belief in God is something hard to grasp. According to the Bible though (Which you presupposed in your first post) it isn't. The Bible claims that all men know God in their hearts and some suppress the truth (Romans 1). That kind of steals the thunder from your idea. Because if it's true that all men know God and he has clearly shown himself to us, then Jesus knowing God doesn't make his human experience any less human.

Also, even if you find the previous argument silly, if you read the Bible you would have to note that there have at least been some humans who have had certainty that God was real. Adam, Elisha, Moses, and Isaiah for instance had what you could call empirical evidence and proof that God was real. You could also throw in the people in the New Testament who witnessed Jesus come back from the dead. So then Jesus having full knowledge of God still wouldn't be an inhuman experience.

So really your idea/argument brings everyone right back to where they started: If you think the stories of the Bible are bullshit, you don't believe it. If you believe the Bible, then you have an answer to your question.

No fault to anyone either way.

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Most judges in criminal court cases do not know what it is like to be a criminal, yet we think these judges fit to judge the criminals.

so you're saying our judicial system is 100% fair and the epitome of all that is true? i would say our judicial system is fucking retarded and complete bullshit. yes, it "works" for the most part, but i could never judge a murderer. i dont know what the fuck its like to be plagued by those kind of thoughts and im not egotistical enough to damn someone who had them (assumingly against their will, as i dont think anyone WANTS to kill anyone).

you seem like you're "intelligent" but dont really think anything you say over. also, whats with christians using really bad metaphors for things? ive noticed this A LOT. i realize it's probably to try to explain things to lay people, but it just looks stupid, and is generally misleading.

Why should God need to know what it is like to be human in order to judge us?

because how is it "fair" to judge something/someone when you havent been in their shoes? ive realizing growing up that people arent "bad" or "good". everyone is both of these. some people, due to how they were raised, are more bad than good. i dont believe anyone is truly "evil" or "bad". life is such a hard, fucked up place, especially with uncontrollable things like mental illness, or the way you were raised, i cant fathom judging anyone RIGHTFULLY without having gone through what they went through. sure, you CAN, but that doesnt make it fair or right. how do you not understand this?

(1) In short, the fact that Jesus knew that God exists does not discredit his knowing what it it is like to be human. Furthermore, even if he did not know what it was like to be human, (2) this does not entail that God has no right to judge humans. Unless you want to give some reasons for, or arguments in support of, your claims, (3) I don't think there is any more I can really say to you about this matter.

1.) yes it does

2.) yes it does

3.) you can say, hey, you're right.

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Just to clarify something that seems to be causing confusion between both sides:

1. According to scripture, God judges people according to their actions and sin. By this judgment, everyone is on their way to Hell.

Zachary: This is what The River was referring to when he disagreed with your statement that we're judged by belief.

2. According to scripture, the only way people can avoid Hell is if they are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

The River: This is what Zachary was really referring to when he said people are judged based on their belief in God. However confusedly he put it.

isnt The Rivers idea of judgment from the old testament, while my understanding of judgment is the new covenant from the new testament? i thought jesus came to destroy the ways of the old testament, and create a new covenant. him being the only way to get to heaven. its said in the bible you DO NOT get to heaven through your works, but through faith... anyone wanna disagree with the bible here, or... what?

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Also, even if you find the previous argument silly, if you read the Bible you would have to note that there have at least been some humans who have had certainty that God was real. Adam, Elisha, Moses, and Isaiah for instance had what you could call empirical evidence and proof that God was real. You could also throw in the people in the New Testament who witnessed Jesus come back from the dead. So then Jesus having full knowledge of God still wouldn't be an inhuman experience.

so we're assuming the old testament is COMPLETELY literal then right? otherwise, i'd say those people didnt really "talk" to god or "see/experience" god, but rather these are just stories about "how we got here"...

ill give you credit for " You could also throw in the people in the New Testament who witnessed Jesus come back from the dead. So then Jesus having full knowledge of God still wouldn't be an inhuman experience." a very smart christian guy i know brought this up, but i still dont really accept this as evidence due to the fact that having a few hundred people "maybe" experience a risen jesus (that apparently didnt even look like jesus? weird) is not the same as everyone on earth not knowing whether god exists. thats like saying, "hey, theres a some billionaires on earth, so everyones a billionaire." no, most people arent billionaires, most people are poor as fuck, and to judge everyone as if they were a billionaire is fucking bullshit. i know that may not make sense at first, but read it a few times.

also: IM NOT SAYING JESUS WAS "INHUMAN" IM MERELY SAYING I DONT FEEL IT IS FAIR OR RIGHT OF GOD TO JUDGE US WITHOUT KNOWING WHATS ITS LIKE TO WANDER AROUND EARTH WONDERING WHY YOU'RE HERE, WHAT YOUR PURPOSE IS, AND IF GOD EXISTS. IF GOD HAS INFINITE KNOWLEDGE, THOUGH, I WOULD LIKE TO IMAGINE HE WOULD HAVE INFINITE COMPASSION AND REALIZE WE ARE ALL FUCKED UP PIECES OF SHIT AND TO GIVE US A BREAK WHEN WE DIE

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so im confused, do you believe in other conspiracy theories, too, or just christianity? im just wondering if you pick and choose your logic to fit your agenda, or if you actually follow what you say. by your standards, any crack pot theory is prove-able, its just that the proof doesnt mean people are gonna believe it.

I believe in logic and truth and they led me to Christianity. I was like you once, when i was a teenager, I didn't believe in a creator or Christianity, but eventually I began to understand that in order to solve the mysteries of existence, we must turn to logic.

One thing that I find astounding that you don't believe is this:

1. Logical thinking leads to discovery of truth about our existence.

Just to clarify something that seems to be causing confusion between both sides:

2. According to scripture, the only way people can avoid Hell is if they are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

The River: This is what Zachary was really referring to when he said people are judged based on their belief in God. However confusedly he put it.

My point is that being saved through faith in Jesus Christ =/= God judging us based on our beliefs.

so you're saying our judicial system is 100% fair and the epitome of all that is true? i would say our judicial system is fucking retarded and complete bullshit. yes, it "works" for the most part, but i could never judge a murderer. i dont know what the fuck its like to be plagued by those kind of thoughts and im not egotistical enough to damn someone who had them (assumingly against their will, as i dont think anyone WANTS to kill anyone).

you seem like you're "intelligent" but dont really think anything you say over. also, whats with christians using really bad metaphors for things? ive noticed this A LOT. i realize it's probably to try to explain things to lay people, but it just looks stupid, and is generally misleading.

because how is it "fair" to judge something/someone when you havent been in their shoes? ive realizing growing up that people arent "bad" or "good". everyone is both of these. some people, due to how they were raised, are more bad than good. i dont believe anyone is truly "evil" or "bad". life is such a hard, fucked up place, especially with uncontrollable things like mental illness, or the way you were raised, i cant fathom judging anyone RIGHTFULLY without having gone through what they went through. sure, you CAN, but that doesnt make it fair or right. how do you not understand this?

You have never murdered anyone (I assume), but don't you know that murder is bad? By your logic, you cannot declare murder as bad because you have not the experience of murdering someone. What about rape? Is that bad?

1.) yes it does

2.) yes it does

3.) you can say, hey, you're right.

1. No it doesn't.

2. No it doesn't.

3. You're wrong.

Now I'M winning the debate. Weeee! We could do this for YEARS!

isnt The Rivers idea of judgment from the old testament, while my understanding of judgment is the new covenant from the new testament? i thought jesus came to destroy the ways of the old testament, and create a new covenant. him being the only way to get to heaven. its said in the bible you DO NOT get to heaven through your works, but through faith... anyone wanna disagree with the bible here, or... what?

In the old testament, God judged people based on their sins. Jesus came not so that God would change the way he judges us (God doesn't change), but so that he wouldn't have to judge those who chose to take Jesus's gift of salvation.

I WOULD LIKE TO IMAGINE HE WOULD HAVE INFINITE COMPASSION AND REALIZE WE ARE ALL FUCKED UP PIECES OF SHIT AND TO GIVE US A BREAK WHEN WE DIE

Seriously! What kind of uncaring God would let us be punished for our sins! He ought to give us a way out or something. If he did, I wonder what that way out would look like.....

buddy-jesus.jpg

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Thought it would be interesting to go back to the original post so that you can see all the different claims you have made that are not accepted as easily as you think. You may want to rethink some of them.

edit: also changed a few answers due to the wording of the statements.

so jesus is god in human form, right?

Yes.

and not only was his purpose to die for our sins,

Yes.

but also to show that god became man

We don't know if this was a purpose of his, but it did happen.

and understands what we go through as human beings, yes?

We don't know if this was a purpose of his, but Jesus did experience being a human.

the problem is, if jesus is god in human form, clearly, jesus knew for a fact that god existed (because he was god, kinda...?)

Yes

therefor, TECHNICALLY, jesus had no idea what it was like to be human

No. You stated earlier that Jesus was human? How can he be a human and not know what it was like to be a human.

because no human being will ever know that god is real.

Can you prove this?

hence religion being based upon "faith" and not "facts".

No. Belief is built upon facts.

in conclusion, god doesn't know what it's like to be human,

No. You stated that Jesus was human.

so there is no reason he should be able to judge us...

No. You don't need to be something in order to judge it. I don't have to BE a rapist to know that rape is wrong.

Two of the main claims you will want to work out are these:

1. Jesus was human.

2. Jesus didn't know what it was like to be human.

Astounding.

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I believe in logic and truth and they led me to Christianity. I was like you once, when i was a teenager, I didn't believe in a creator or Christianity, but eventually I began to understand that in order to solve the mysteries of existence, we must turn to logic.

One thing that I find astounding that you don't believe is this:

1. Logical thinking leads to discovery of truth about our existence.

My point is that being saved through faith in Jesus Christ =/= God judging us based on our beliefs.

You have never murdered anyone (I assume), but don't you know that murder is bad? By your logic, you cannot declare murder as bad because you have not the experience of murdering someone. What about rape? Is that bad?

1. No it doesn't.

2. No it doesn't.

3. You're wrong.

Now I'M winning the debate. Weeee! We could do this for YEARS!

In the old testament, God judged people based on their sins. Jesus came not so that God would change the way he judges us (God doesn't change), but so that he wouldn't have to judge those who chose to take Jesus's gift of salvation.

Seriously! What kind of uncaring God would let us be punished for our sins! He ought to give us a way out or something. If he did, I wonder what that way out would look like.....

buddy-jesus.jpg

I believe in logic and truth and they led me away from Christianity. I was like you once, when i was growing up, I was raised to believed in a creator or "Christianity" by my mother, but eventually I began to understand that in order to solve the mysteries of existence, we must turn to logic. It was there that i read lots of debates on christianity and lots of books on christianity. i gave up christianity as my religion/believing in a creator somewhere around 8th grade, yet still continued going to church, read/study christianity, go to youth group, mission trips (which i loved. playing with dirty little mexican kids you cant talk to is surprisingly a very amazing experience. i feel bad that i had to participate in lying to them, saying the only reason i was there was for jesus [i never personally said this to any of them, but being a part of a group that did kinda implies it] rather than being there because i loved the kids). i did all of this up until i was about 18 (then i left for tour and was on the road up until a year ago, currently 21yrs young). why the fuck did i just type all that? i just saw "country strong" forgive me if im a lil scatterbrained.

You have never murdered anyone (I assume), but don't you know that murder is bad? By your logic, you cannot declare murder as bad because you have not the experience of murdering someone. What about rape? Is that bad?

your logic here is absolutely fucking horrid, sick, sad, disgusting, and part of whats wrong with this world.

the act of "murder" and "rape" are of course HORRIBLE things, im not arguing against that. what im arguing is this: i have never been in the shoes of someone who has been pushed to the point of killing or raping someone. do you think these are just "normal" people? i'd like to think there are REASONS leading up to what they did. some of the reasons being things out of their control. we judge everyone the same legally (well... kinda... not really... but you know what i mean) but everyone is so different and has all their own little problems that i would be a fucking asshole to say "you're a horrible, evil, human being" to someone who did that, because i realize that they are most likely FUCKED up beyond belief. i am thankful i have never been pushed to that point, but i feel like we are ALL capable, it just depends on the situations we are in. do you not believe this? do you think people who go out and murder other people or rape other people are just your normal, happy person? of course not, theyre fucked beyond belief. i dont understand how you dont grasp this. i feel like i have a lot more compassion for humankind than you do, yet im the one who doesnt even believe a "moral code" truly exists. at least not one from the christian god. that's pretty fucking sad.

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I'm going to go ahead and declare my own axiom.

None of us have had to truly face our own mortality through death, which is the quintessential human experience. Therefore, none of us know what it is to truly experience humanity.

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I believe in logic and truth and they led me away from Christianity. I was like you once, when i was growing up, I was raised to believed in a creator or "Christianity" by my mother, but eventually I began to understand that in order to solve the mysteries of existence, we must turn to logic. It was there that i read lots of debates on christianity and lots of books on christianity. i gave up christianity as my religion/believing in a creator somewhere around 8th grade, yet still continued going to church, read/study christianity, go to youth group, mission trips (which i loved. playing with dirty little mexican kids you cant talk to is surprisingly a very amazing experience. i feel bad that i had to participate in lying to them, saying the only reason i was there was for jesus [i never personally said this to any of them, but being a part of a group that did kinda implies it] rather than being there because i loved the kids). i did all of this up until i was about 18 (then i left for tour and was on the road up until a year ago, currently 21yrs young). why the fuck did i just type all that? i just saw "country strong" forgive me if im a lil scatterbrained.

That's cool and I am glad that you at least acknowledge that we must use logic and reason to ascertain the truth. I was worried about that for a little bit after reading some of your posts...

the act of "murder" and "rape" are of course HORRIBLE things, im not arguing against that.

How can you judge those actions as bad? YOU HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED THEM. (Again, you're logic.)

PS> Since you don't believe in a moral code, you're already on shaky ground because by that admission, you can't really believe anything is "bad." Even rape or murder.

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That's cool and I am glad that you at least acknowledge that we must use logic and reason to ascertain the truth. I was worried about that for a little bit after reading some of your posts...

How can you judge those actions as bad? YOU HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED THEM. (Again, you're logic.)

PS> Since you don't believe in a moral code, you're already on shaky ground because by that admission, you can't really believe anything is "bad." Even rape or murder.

you are so stupid that i cant even begin to explain how stupid you are. goddamn. you are living in a dream world. you think your life is run by logic, but its run by pure stupidity. wow... just wow.

sorry its just fucking hilarious because ive argued/debated with people using ALL the same fucking "tricks" youre using. every single one of them. i know exactly what youre saying and where you're coming from, i just got to a point where i was like "wow, this shit is so retarded..."

(fun fact: even when i was agnostic/atheist, i used to argue in FAVOR of christianity against people, just to play the devils advocate [or, jesus's advocate in this case, LOL] but then about 3 years ago i realized a few big things that you havent realized yet)

i got heavily into christian apologetics when i was about 13, and studied it vigorously for about 5+ years. i still read about it, but i was allll into debates and shit for those 5 or so years. dont act like im just some little atheist kid who doesnt know anything about this religion and hates god because im gothic. i "hate" god because he doesnt exist and its sad seeing people like my mother believe in this shit and be depressed and me sit back knowing this is all bullshit, even though she lives her whole life by it. its just really fucking sad. REALLY fucking sad.

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you are so stupid that i cant even begin to explain how stupid you are. goddamn. you are living in a dream world. you think your life is run by logic, but its run by pure stupidity. wow... just wow.

sorry its just fucking hilarious because ive argued/debated with people using ALL the same fucking "tricks" youre using. every single one of them. i know exactly what youre saying and where you're coming from, i just got to a point where i was like "wow, this shit is so retarded..."

(fun fact: even when i was agnostic/atheist, i used to argue in FAVOR of christianity against people, just to play the devils advocate [or, jesus's advocate in this case, LOL] but then about 3 years ago i realized a few big things that you havent realized yet)

i got heavily into christian apologetics when i was about 13, and studied it vigorously for about 5+ years. i still read about it, but i was allll into debates and shit for those 5 or so years. dont act like im just some little atheist kid who doesnt know anything about this religion and hates god because im gothic. i "hate" god because he doesnt exist and its sad seeing people like my mother believe in this shit and be depressed and me sit back knowing this is all bullshit, even though she lives her whole life by it. its just really fucking sad. REALLY fucking sad.

So can I assume that since you are refusing to back up your claims that they are not true?

I guess you're just content to whine and get your feelings hurt when your ridiculous claims are challenged instead of actually backing them up.

I feel secure in the fact that when my claims are challenged, I can back them up. I am sorry that you cannot and that you must resort to writing paragraphs about how stupid I am.

Here is how this debate has gone thus far:

1. Zachary makes several claims and comes to a conclusion.

2. The River denies the claims with reason and thus denies the conclusion.

3. Zachary gets butt hurt and whines and whines and whines, and brings up the original claims with no additional backing.

4. Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

It would seem that if you've "debated for years and studied apologetics" that you would know that this is not an effective means of coming to any sort of truthful conclusion. I can only assume that either you didn't do that, or that you didn't really learn anything then either. Either one is entirely possible.

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i got heavily into christian apologetics when i was about 13, and studied it vigorously for about 5+ years. i still read about it, but i was allll into debates and shit for those 5 or so years. dont act like im just some little atheist kid who doesnt know anything about this religion and hates god because im gothic. i "hate" god because he doesnt exist and its sad seeing people like my mother believe in this shit and be depressed and me sit back knowing this is all bullshit, even though she lives her whole life by it. its just really fucking sad. REALLY fucking sad.

Haha, just read this. So between the ages of 13-18? Now things are starting to make sense. During that time, I guess you didn't learn that discussions NORMALLY don't go like this:

Person A: Here's something I believe.

Person B: Nuh uh!!! You're fucking stupid!?!?!

Person A: No, YOU'RE fucking stupid!!!!

Lather rinse repeat.

If these are the kind of discussions you're used to having, no wonder you can't grasp some of the simpler concepts we're discussing.

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