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prince zachary

did jesus really know what it's like to be "human"?

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Back to the basics though and we will see if we can get anywhere. I've counted a total of 5 different claims you have made that have been denied by either myself, or others in this thread. Since that's a lot to sort through for people that don't have much experience with an actual debate (aka not who can say "fuck" the most wins), let's start with just 1.

1. Jesus did not experience being a human.

2. A human cannot know that God exists.

3. Christianity is based on faith and not facts.

4. God judges us based on whether or not we believe in him.

5. God cannot judge something he has not experienced.

I disagree with all of these, but pick one of your claims and back it up with some sort of proof or logical reasoning you may have for it.

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Back to the basics though and we will see if we can get anywhere. I've counted a total of 5 different claims you have made that have been denied by either myself, or others in this thread. Since that's a lot to sort through for people that don't have much experience with an actual debate (aka not who can say "fuck" the most wins), let's start with just 1.

1. Jesus did not experience being a human.

2. A human cannot know that God exists.

3. Christianity is based on faith and not facts.

4. God judges us based on whether or not we believe in him.

5. God cannot judge something he has not experienced.

I disagree with all of these, but pick one of your claims and back it up with some sort of proof or logical reasoning you may have for it.

Since you and at least one other poster believe #2 to be correct, I'm quite curious as to how you both know that a human CAN know that God exists. There are biblical verses obviously that deal with this (exodus 24:9-11, 6:2-3, gen 17:1 & 18:1), but there are also verses that imply it is IMPOSSIBLE to see God and that those who did before (in the verses I mentioned) merely saw visions of him. Now based on the idea in christianity that belief/faith is the key to salvation, I'm curious as to how you guys so firmly believe someone can KNOW God exists. While I'm sure there are millions of people throughout the course of history who would tell you they believe they know He exists, that's a big stretch from knowing-knowing. I've battled with faith all my life, in fact I would say that's one intrinsic value of being human that Jesus never had to deal with, and the book itself mentions faith and belief to be keys to salvation, not "111% pure knowledge and certainty." I feel as if you (and possibly the other poster) are playing a semantical game with the OP simply because there is an "argument" somewhere here in your mind that you both are trying to defend. Simply put, faith/belief is the key, and "knowing" would thus make faith and belief obsolete, which is the opposite of what the bible has told me.

Did Jesus fully experience being human? NO! He was without sin, and we all know that humans are BORN INTO SIN. It's as simple as that. Stop playing semantics and trying to win arguments and discuss things real from your heart. Ok, so Jesus didn't fully EXPERIENCE being human, but as God he KNEW what that was like (according to the very definition of an omnipotent God, he has to know).

Also, I feel you're being very petty with #4 there, as you have almost agreed that it's merely semantics at this point. Sure God does not judge us based on whether we believe in him or not, that's true, he judges us on a lot more than that (our sins/acts/beliefs/etc), you're still not making it to salvation without belief in Jesus Christ our Lord. So while it may be "fair" to say "God does not judge us based on whether or not we believe in Him" it's really not fair to say, as he makes sure that those who do not believe do not reach salvation.

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Since you and at least one other poster believe #2 to be correct, I'm quite curious as to how you both know that a human CAN know that God exists. There are biblical verses obviously that deal with this (exodus 24:9-11, 6:2-3, gen 17:1 & 18:1), but there are also verses that imply it is IMPOSSIBLE to see God and that those who did before (in the verses I mentioned) merely saw visions of him. Now based on the idea in christianity that belief/faith is the key to salvation, I'm curious as to how you guys so firmly believe someone can KNOW God exists. While I'm sure there are millions of people throughout the course of history who would tell you they believe they know He exists, that's a big stretch from knowing-knowing. I've battled with faith all my life, in fact I would say that's one intrinsic value of being human that Jesus never had to deal with, and the book itself mentions faith and belief to be keys to salvation, not "111% pure knowledge and certainty." I feel as if you (and possibly the other poster) are playing a semantical game with the OP simply because there is an "argument" somewhere here in your mind that you both are trying to defend. Simply put, faith/belief is the key, and "knowing" would thus make faith and belief obsolete, which is the opposite of what the bible has told me.

Did Jesus fully experience being human? NO! He was without sin, and we all know that humans are BORN INTO SIN. It's as simple as that. Stop playing semantics and trying to win arguments and discuss things real from your heart. Ok, so Jesus didn't fully EXPERIENCE being human, but as God he KNEW what that was like (according to the very definition of an omnipotent God, he has to know).

Also, I feel you're being very petty with #4 there, as you have almost agreed that it's merely semantics at this point. Sure God does not judge us based on whether we believe in him or not, that's true, he judges us on a lot more than that (our sins/acts/beliefs/etc), you're still not making it to salvation without belief in Jesus Christ our Lord. So while it may be "fair" to say "God does not judge us based on whether or not we believe in Him" it's really not fair to say, as he makes sure that those who do not believe do not reach salvation.

i feel like i just paid someone to type up everything i wanted to say, but didnt have the attention span to type up. thanks.

i like the point you bring up "Ok, so Jesus didn't fully EXPERIENCE being human, but as God he KNEW what that was like (according to the very definition of an omnipotent God, he has to know)." the only problem i have with that is, how would god know what its like to doubt him? that seems... impossible? and it seems a cop-out to say "well, he's god, so he knows everything."

i also don't understand how jesus could NOT sin. like... just think about that statement. think about your day, think about every little possible way there is to sin. especially being amongst other people, and dealing with them. it just seems like a person who managed to never sin would eventually go insane. if not, he must've had some insane confidence, which seems kinda screwed up. why? because if god could make a sinless jesus, why couldnt he make everyone like jesus? clearly jesus had "free-will" right? how come he was able to do it and we arent? why couldnt god make us like jesus? because jesus was god? see how weird all this shit gets? fuck... circles and circles and circles and circles.

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Since you and at least one other poster believe #2 to be correct, I'm quite curious as to how you both know that a human CAN know that God exists. There are biblical verses obviously that deal with this (exodus 24:9-11, 6:2-3, gen 17:1 & 18:1), but there are also verses that imply it is IMPOSSIBLE to see God and that those who did before (in the verses I mentioned) merely saw visions of him. Now based on the idea in christianity that belief/faith is the key to salvation, I'm curious as to how you guys so firmly believe someone can KNOW God exists. While I'm sure there are millions of people throughout the course of history who would tell you they believe they know He exists, that's a big stretch from knowing-knowing. I've battled with faith all my life, in fact I would say that's one intrinsic value of being human that Jesus never had to deal with, and the book itself mentions faith and belief to be keys to salvation, not "111% pure knowledge and certainty."

I first want to thank you for having an actual discussion with some really interesting points. I think we agree on some of the broader ideas, but disagree on some of the more minute. Let me make sure I understand what you are saying.

You are saying that it is not possible for a human to know that God exists according to scripture. Is this correct?

First, I think we have to define what we mean by "knowing that God exists." I would say that anyone who has seen God, Jesus (specifically when he is performing miracles of God, and even more especially if they seen him resurrected and ascending into heaven), or experienced the Holy Spirit (which I admit, is a little trickier to discern) would know with little doubt that God actually exists. Do you agree with this?

So with that being said, I find it difficult to believe that a human CAN NOT know that God exists. Specifically given the scriptures you referred to where God does reveal himself. Not to mention the vast amount of scripture where people witnessed Jesus performing miracles and resurrected from the dead. The people that followed him around for about 3 years? I think those people knew that God existed. So if you're a Christian, can you believe that it is it possible to know that God exists? Yes and In fact, it is very scriptural.

Secondly, I never claimed that God designed it so that EVERYONE knows without no doubt that he exists. I agree with you that belief and faith are a big part of Christianity. Does that mean blind faith? Absolutely not. Christian faith is still built upon claims that have standing in the logical realm. Faith built upon facts. Obviously there is not enough evidence to prove to everyone in the world either that God does or doesn't exist, but if we are to believe in anything, we have to look at the most logical evidence we have.

Lastly, I think there is a difference between "knowing something" and "being able to know something" that I think is being missed in the conversation. Suppose I don't know God exists. That doesn't mean I can't know it, if it were revealed to me plain as day.

Obviously all of this is in contrast to Zachary's claim that:

no human being will ever know that god is real.

I would like to see some of the other scripture you said that suggested that we cannot know God exists.

I feel as if you (and possibly the other poster) are playing a semantical game with the OP simply because there is an "argument" somewhere here in your mind that you both are trying to defend. Simply put, faith/belief is the key, and "knowing" would thus make faith and belief obsolete, which is the opposite of what the bible has told me.

Sorry if it seems like that. I am partially playing around a little bit, BUT I do feel as if there are some real problems with the claims made by Zachary.

Did Jesus fully experience being human? NO! He was without sin, and we all know that humans are BORN INTO SIN. It's as simple as that. Stop playing semantics and trying to win arguments and discuss things real from your heart. Ok, so Jesus didn't fully EXPERIENCE being human, but as God he KNEW what that was like (according to the very definition of an omnipotent God, he has to know).

This may seem like a semantics game, but there is an important difference between the three different terms being thrown around

1. Being human.

2. Experiencing humanity as we do (with sin/doubt/etc.)

3. Experiencing humanity as Jesus did (sinless with no doubt of his own purpose/existence/etc.).

#2 and #3 just simply seem to be two different ways that you could experience #1. Correct?

I think you would agree that Jesus was human (#1), did not experience humanity as we do (#2), and did experience humanity without sin (#3). Do you agree?

I think you would also agree that Jesus's purpose was to be human(#1), experience a sinless life (#3), but not to experience humanity as we do (#2). Do you agree?

This is one of the problems that I was having with Zachary's argument because he made 2 claims:

a. One of Jesus's purpose's was to experience humanity as we do (#2). (see below)

not only was his purpose to die for our sins, but also to show that god became man and understands what we go through as human beings, yes?

I think we both agree that this^ claim is false.

and...

b. That Jesus did not experience what it was like to be human (#1). (see below)

jesus had no idea what it was like to be human

I think we can both agree that this claim is also false.^

I also had another problem that related to this. The problem was that Zachary drew a correlation between experience humanity as we do, and being able to judge us that just didn't follow. (see below)

god doesn't know what it's like to be human, so there is no reason he should be able to judge us

Zachary proposed that in order to judge someone justly, you had to have the exact same experience that they did. This doesn't follow logically, nor is it practical (or sane for that matter).

Also, I feel you're being very petty with #4 there, as you have almost agreed that it's merely semantics at this point. Sure God does not judge us based on whether we believe in him or not, that's true, he judges us on a lot more than that (our sins/acts/beliefs/etc), you're still not making it to salvation without belief in Jesus Christ our Lord. So while it may be "fair" to say "God does not judge us based on whether or not we believe in Him" it's really not fair to say, as he makes sure that those who do not believe do not reach salvation.

One of Zachary's basic questions was

so how can we be judged on whether or not we believe some story passed down for thousands of years? thats stupid

The problem with the above is that Zachary's claim RELIED on the exact opposite of the bolded text in your post. If God does not judge us based on whether or not we believe in him, then Zachary's argument is making a false assumption before the question is even asked. That's why it was so important for me to argue that particular point. My main point is that the question from the OP makes several (5) false assumptions before the question is even asked, so how can anyone answer it without addressing them.

It's kind of like those troll science comics. Why don't you accept the conclusions he draws? Because all of the assumptions are bogus. U Jelly logic?

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i feel like i just paid someone to type up everything i wanted to say, but didnt have the attention span to type up. thanks.

i like the point you bring up "Ok, so Jesus didn't fully EXPERIENCE being human, but as God he KNEW what that was like (according to the very definition of an omnipotent God, he has to know)." the only problem i have with that is, how would god know what its like to doubt him? that seems... impossible?

I don't think he did know what it was like to doubt himself.

i also don't understand how jesus could NOT sin. like... just think about that statement. think about your day, think about every little possible way there is to sin. especially being amongst other people, and dealing with them. it just seems like a person who managed to never sin would eventually go insane.

It seems like an impossible task. If this task were possible though, it seems to me that the only one who could do it would have to be a God. One who is actually a moral absolute. (note: This is what Christians believe.)

if god could make a sinless jesus, why couldnt he make everyone like jesus?

I think some people would say we were made with free will because we were made in God's own image. We are made to be like him.

Others would say we are made with free-will so that we may exhibit love. Love cannot be exhibited without a choice.

clearly jesus had "free-will" right? how come he was able to do it and we arent?

Because he is God, and we are not? I honestly don't know why he wouldn't create us to be exactly like him.

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1.) I think some people would say we were made with free will because we were made in God's own image. We are made to be like him.

2.) Others would say we are made with free-will so that we may exhibit love. Love cannot be exhibited without a choice.

3.) Because he is God, and we are not? I honestly don't know why he wouldn't create us to be exactly like him.

1.) Cool

2.) so jesus couldnt love? Cool

3.) ya me either. can you admit its a decent question? i was high when i thought of it!!!

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Zachary proposed that in order to judge someone justly, you had to have the exact same experience that they did. This doesn't follow logically, nor is it practical (or sane for that matter).

do you realize the stupidity of what you are saying? of course its not "practical" for humans, because its pretty much impossible, but for GOD, a being that can do anything, it seems like to really truly JUSTLY judge us, he has to know everything we went through (which assuming he's god, he would, right? no argument there). all im trying to say, is i dont think god is as evil as you christians make him out to be.

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1.) Cool

2.) so jesus couldnt love? Cool

3.) ya me either. can you admit its a decent question? i was high when i thought of it!!!

2.) Not sure how you drew that conclusion.

3.) Yeah, I think it's interesting to guess about the purposes of God and his reasoning. Unfortunately, he didn't tell us everything we want to know about him, and we are naturally curious. There's probably a reason for it though.

do you realize the stupidity of what you are saying? of course its not "practical" for humans, because its pretty much impossible, but for GOD, a being that can do anything, it seems like to really truly JUSTLY judge us, he has to know everything we went through (which assuming he's god, he would, right? no argument there). all im trying to say, is i dont think god is as evil as you christians make him out to be.

No one's making him out to be evil. And I agree with you that God does know everything we went through (which is way different than experiencing it first hand), and has compassion for us and loves us enough to send Jesus to save us. I don't think God is evil. I think he is the moral absolute. God is love, as cliche as that saying is.

What do you think Christians believe that portray God as evil? That he punishes evil? I think that shows that he cares for us immensely.

Think about a parent and a child. If the parent didn't punish a child for doing wrong, then I would say that parent doesn't give a crap about that kid or how he turns out, but the parent that disciplines their child for their wrong doings because he wants them to do good, loves them in spite of them, and FORGIVES THEM even when they continually make mistakes (as long as they acknowledge their mistakes). Now that is a compassionate parent.

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Think about a parent and a child. If the parent didn't punish a child for doing wrong, then I would say that parent doesn't give a crap about that kid or how he turns out, but the parent that disciplines their child for their wrong doings because he wants them to do good, loves them in spite of them, and FORGIVES THEM even when they continually make mistakes (as long as they acknowledge their mistakes). Now that is a compassionate parent.

yep, the only problem is this:

no "loving" parent would throw their kid out if their kid didnt believe some passed down story about the parents origin. especially when there are at least 3-4 other very popular "rival" stories about the parents origin. also, this is assuming the parents actually RAISED the kid, they didnt just make a kid and leave it off in the world without ever contacting it (dont give me this bullshit about how god "contacts us" but we just dont know it, because why would god do that if he KNEW we wouldnt notice it? thats stupid)

you get what im saying about how fucking stupid this is? that's really cool you "logically" believe in christianity, but to believe in that, that means you CLEARLY have proof that Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism are all false teachings. ive read the little christian books and heard sermons on why they arent "true" but im willing to bet they have just as much "dirt" on you (christians) as you do on them about how false their religion is. god is not prejudice against religion (i would hope?)

plus, god set us up to fail from the start. he knew we would all fail, yet made us anyways. so that either means 1 of 2 things:

1.) we didnt fail

2.) god is fucking with us

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yep, the only problem is this:

no "loving" parent would throw their kid out if their kid didnt believe some passed down story about the parents origin.

Christians don't believe that God "throws you out" if you don't believe in him. The only way that we can be removed from God is by our sin. So rather than being "kicked out," we rebelled and moved out on our own. God will gladly accept us back into his house if we leave our sin on the doorstep.

also, this is assuming the parents actually RAISED the kid, they didnt just make a kid and leave it off in the world without ever contacting it (dont give me this bullshit about how god "contacts us" but we just dont know it, because why would god do that if he KNEW we wouldnt notice it? thats stupid)

Christians believe that God reveals himself mainly through the Bible, which teaches us and guides us.

you get what im saying about how fucking stupid this is?

May I ask how old you are?

that's really cool you "logically" believe in christianity, but to believe in that, that means you CLEARLY have proof that Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism are all false teachings.

By your logic, in order to believe something, we must disprove all other theories? Not true for me at least (most other people don't live this way either). If you want to function that way, then you're going to have a hard time believing ANYTHING. I always believe in whatever has the most convincing and most solid evidence towards it.

ive read the little christian books and heard sermons on why they arent "true" but im willing to bet they have just as much "dirt" on you (christians) as you do on them about how false their religion is. god is not prejudice against religion (i would hope?)

Actually, God was quite against religion. Ever heard of the Pharisees?

plus, god set us up to fail from the start. he knew we would all fail, yet made us anyways. so that either means 1 of 2 things:

1.) we didnt fail

2.) god is fucking with us

There are a lot of theories out there about how God could make us knowing that we would sin. God can't create evil, and God can't hide knowledge of future events from himself. So it is puzzling, but if you think about the bigger picture, God created us, knowing we would fail, but he did have the knowledge that he would send Jesus to save us. So it seems this could be an argument is towards his omniscience and his ability to plan things out. Either way, when we get into questions of "why would God do this.." things get a little more murky because as humans, it is hard for us to understand a being who is eternal/omniscient/omnipotent/omnipresent.

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then god would technically know he failed. of course, this is if you consider the fact that only 33% of the world considers themselves christian (though i think the "true" percentage would be much lower as a lot of those people were just raised in the religion without really believing it in their hearts). if your kid came home with a 33% on his report card, what would you say? if you had sex with your wife and she said you performed at a 3.5 out of 10, how would you feel? what if she told you you probably technically performed at around a 1.5-2 out 10, she just didnt wanna make you feel bad?

all im saying is, if god knows what he's doin, he sure fucking hates us all, because only about 15% of people (if even that) are hanging tough with him and jesus and the angels.

i really dont understand how you cant see how ridiculous this is. i remember hearing stuff like this when i was a christian and just being like "well, thats the way it is" and im sure thats exactly what you're going to say (we gotta pay for our sin guys!!!!). but really STEP BACK AND THINK ABOUT THAT. MOST OF THE WORLD IS GOING TO HELL. GOD FAILED. F-

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its just hard for me to believe in a god who has less compassion than i do. i'd feel disgusting for being in heaven while everyone else goes to hell. how can you be happy in heaven when the majority of the world is in hell? do they just deny this? arent you supposed to be happy in heaven? am i the only one who thinks about this stuff?

also, whats the deal with everyone always giving the glory to god? "i wanna thank god for this..." "i couldnt have done this without god..." and just hearing that youre supposed to thank god for everything and focus on him and talk to him... what kind of god would want you to waste your life focused on a being that has nothing to do with the world? wouldnt god want us to focus on helping others and making the world a better place rather than dedicating your life to focus on him?

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God's purpose/job is not to make sure people get to heaven. That's our job. We screwed up, not him. You can't fail at something if it's someone else's fault.

technically it is his fault because if he can make a jesus once, he could've made us all like jesus. it was his choice to let us be sinful. dont say "well he wanted to give us free will" because jesus had free will and was sinless. and jesus was fully human, remember from earlier? so god made a sinless human being without waiving free will.

also, if you were having a child and you knew it would turn out to be hitler and there was nothing you could do (or rather, you COULD'VE intervened, but didn't, just like god COULD intervene with us, but chooses not to) then you would be guilty for having that baby. if i flicked a cigarette out the window and it lit up the side of the freeway, its still my fault even though i didnt personally set fire to anything, the cigarette did. yes, you can say "well the cigarette doesnt have any choice in the matter" but when it comes down to it, do we REALLY? nah...

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and jesus was fully human, remember from earlier?

He was also fully God. That is the key difference. There can only be one God.

also, if you were having a child and you knew it would turn out to be hitler and there was nothing you could do (or rather, you COULD'VE intervened, but didn't, just like god COULD intervene with us, but chooses not to) then you would be guilty for having that baby.

God certainly is "guilty" for creating humans with the capacity for evil, but we are still guilty for our own actions.

Think about the situation you proposed with Hitler's parents. If they knew what he was going to become and what he was going to do, should we try them for the Holocaust? I don't think so. That's still Hitler's evil actions. If you think we should, then maybe you are a little less compassionate than you have been saying.

It is my opinion that God knew that in creating humans, there was the capacity for us to become evil, but there was also the capacity for an even greater thing than evil: love. I think God had a choice. He could either create humanity to do exactly as they were supposed to (slaves). Or he could create humanity that would be able to love, but in doing that they would also have the capacity to hate and be evil.

Why did God choose to do that? It's a really good question, and to me the answer is that love is so important that it is worth risking all the evil in the world.

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He was also fully God. That is the key difference. There can only be one God.

God certainly is "guilty" for creating humans with the capacity for evil, but we are still guilty for our own actions.

Think about the situation you proposed with Hitler's parents. If they knew what he was going to become and what he was going to do, should we try them for the Holocaust? I don't think so. That's still Hitler's evil actions. If you think we should, then maybe you are a little less compassionate than you have been saying.

if they knew what hitler was going to do and there was no stopping it then they clearly agreed with what he did and were the catalyst upon which he would've been able to accomplish his goal.

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if they knew what hitler was going to do and there was no stopping it then they clearly agreed with what he did and were the catalyst upon which he would've been able to accomplish his goal.

I wouldn't say that necessarily means they "clearly agreed" with what he did. Along with all the bad that Hitler did, let's pretend there was some good to come out of it. Let's pretend that Hitler went on later in life to repent and actually saved more lives than he destroyed. That might put a different perspective on his parent's choice.

In the same way, I think God had to make a similar choice. Yes, evil would come from humans having free will, BUT the benefit of free will would GREATLY outweigh the detriment. In the same way, everyone knows that evil exists and is getting more prevalent (look at Jersey Shore!), but the Christian believe that God's plan for us and our free will far exceeds the evil that exists because of it.

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In the same way, I think God had to make a similar choice. Yes, evil would come from humans having free will, BUT the benefit of free will would GREATLY outweigh the detriment. In the same way, everyone knows that evil exists and is getting more prevalent (look at Jersey Shore!), but the Christian believe that God's plan for us and our free will far exceeds the evil that exists because of it.

I would interject that there is a difference between the idea of "God's Plan for Free will" benefits outweigh the evil it produces is just another arguable sign of the lack of a god. I know it's not quantifiable really, the amount of people that were put to death because of either a disbelief in another's god, the supposed wrath "god" inflicted on the unbelievers, or wars carried out in the name of "god," but to just assume the good outweighs the bad reeks of hubris.

I don't know if I'm veering off topic with this, but just saying that the good things religion has done outweighs the bad is an incredibly poor argument.

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I would interject that there is a difference between the idea of "God's Plan for Free will" benefits outweigh the evil it produces is just another arguable sign of the lack of a god. I know it's not quantifiable really, the amount of people that were put to death because of either a disbelief in another's god, the supposed wrath "god" inflicted on the unbelievers, or wars carried out in the name of "god," but to just assume the good outweighs the bad reeks of hubris.

I don't know if I'm veering off topic with this, but just saying that the good things religion has done outweighs the bad is an incredibly poor argument.

Yeah, not really trying to make an argument for this, but I am trying to show how it MIGHT be justifiable from a human perspective that God created humans that commit evil acts.

But, what's important is that we ARE looking at it from a human perspective. If you can accept that God is all knowing, all powerful, all present, and all GOOD then you must also accept that his view of "good and bad" is far different and greater than what we can see and understand. Like I said, I am just trying to show how you can justify it if you are a theist.

I would also never want to argue for religion or what religious people have done. What people have done "in the name of God" is sometimes very disturbing.

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Oh, I thought you said, "we" That's usually a plural pronoun that includes the person stating the sentence.

Either way, I don't really understand the question, and I'm not sure where you got brainwashed from.

Are you asking me if it would be easier to believe Christianity is true if no other belief existed?

Or are you asking if we would be better off if no religion existed?

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dude are you fucking braindead? quit playing dumb, it just makes you look stupid. you know damn fucking well what i said, dont fucking play this stupid semantics game. goddamn, is this what you do for fun since you cant masturbate????

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Stupid is not knowing how to use the word "we" and getting butt hurt about something someone on the internet said. lol.

Are you asking me if it would be easier to believe Christianity is true if no other belief existed?

Or are you asking if we would be better off if no religion existed?

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