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Bill Simmons

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ummmm, probably only you.

don't be a retard and use the race card where it doesn't apply.

Vinny Del Negro.

Mike Dunleavy.

Brad Childress.

Andy Reid.

David Kahn

etc, etc

favoritism towards 'his' guys: Daryl Morey, for starters

one of the dumbest posts I can remember you posting in a long while.

There's a logical fallacy called denying the antecedent which you've committed.

I didn't say that Simmons doesn't criticize white people. I said he's more likely to criticize black coaches. If there are 25 white coaches and he complains about 5 of them, and there are 5 black coaches and he complains about 4 of them, he's more likely to complain about black coaches.

Other than the Nuggets GM, can you think of a black GM in the NBA that he doesn't routinely criticize? King, Thomas, Jordan, Dumars, Baylor, Jackson, etc.

There aren't very many black executives in the NBA, so just listing a few white guys he criticizes completely misses the point.

And you don't understand what the phrase "race card" means. The phrase implies that an argument is taking place and someone uses race as a form of deviation from the argument. There was no argument taking place. I'm not using a racial argument to win a debate. I'm simply making an observation about race.

Your use of the term implies than any discussion of race is a cop out, which the term "race card" obviously means.

So if you're going to call my post "one of the dumbest" you've seen, I'd be more likely to agree with you if you weren't committing twice as many errors as you presumed I did in the first place.

Edited by fellside

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Haha. The flaw in my argument is that a lot of the guys Simmons criticizes do really seem to be bad at their jobs.

The reason I brought it up today, however, is that Simmons mentioned Raheem Morris and Jim Caldwell in his article today and it made me think of all the black men in leadership roles that he can't stand. Morris took a pretty bad Tampa Bay team to a 10-6 record and hasn't exactly had much time in the league. Caldwell coached an Indianapolis team that Simmons himself said wasn't as good as people thought. If he's going to say that Manning wasn't very good in 2010, then it doesn't sound very rational to single out Caldwell. Especially when you factor in that Caldwell coached a team in the Super Bowl and very few coaches get that far.

Whatever. I'm not one to just randomly bring up racial arguments so if I'm wrong here I just missed the mark. There's no deliberate attempt to take away Simmons' credibility.

Edited by fellside

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ummmm, probably only you.

don't be a retard and use the race card where it doesn't apply.

Vinny Del Negro.

Mike Dunleavy.

Brad Childress.

Andy Reid.

David Kahn

etc, etc

favoritism towards 'his' guys: Daryl Morey, for starters

one of the dumbest posts I can remember you posting in a long while.

There's a logical fallacy called Affirming the Consequent which you've committed.

I didn't say that Simmons doesn't criticize white people. I said he's more likely to criticize black coaches. If there are 25 white coaches and he complains about 5 of them, and there are 5 black coaches and he complains about 4 of them, he's more likely to complain about black coaches.

Other than the Nuggets GM, can you think of a black GM in the NBA that he doesn't routinely criticize? King, Thomas, Jordan, Dumars, Baylor, Jackson, etc.

what do Thomas, Jordan, Dumars, and Baylor all have in common? All former players, so bigger target.

Jordan, Isiah, Baylor all deserved the criticism.

They generally have deserved it and some of them have been the biggest jokes in sports in their post-playing careers or have been part of the worst teams. Those are NAME guys where everybody knows them.

He went after:

-Kahn

-James Dolan (and he did trash Donnie Walsh)

-Danny Ainge

-Sarver (Kerr was not at fault there as it was pretty transparent he was handicapped)

countless others in other sports in positions of authority.

There aren't very many black executives in the NBA, so just listing a few white guys he criticizes completely misses the point.

He didn't go after Otis Smith really. Daryl Morey is a guy he would have gone after more if he weren't friends with him...Mark Cuban is a guy whom he clearly loves but they're both combative dudes so it's free range there.

And you don't understand what the phrase "race card" means. That's true. The phrase implies that an argument is taking place and someone uses race as a form of argument. There was no argument taking place. I'm not using a racial argument to win a debate. I'm simply making an observation about race.Y Your observation is retarded. There's nothing racial about it to pick apart. There's a LOT of shit to pick apart in sports (how about D1 college coaches who are black?) They just happen to be black.

Your use of the term implies than any discussion of race is a cop out, which the term "race card" obviously means.

So if you're going to call my post "one of the dumbest" you've seen, I'd be more likely to agree with you if you weren't committing twice as many errors as you presumed I did in the first place. That's fair, but still, the defense you're making as if there is any truth to this is dumb. He's blasted everybody generally. 'Oh, no. Bill Simmons blasted another black coach/GM. Racism.' Fuck off. There's some justified shit to trashing Bill Simmons that I can understand. Then there's the part that he isn't as good he used to be (I'd agree). I'll naturally disagree with people on some shit...but this? I don't see how anybody can say that shit when he's making fun of generally everybody. Just move on because there's no merit to what you're saying.

there are the guys you pointed out...

Raheem Morris, Caldwell, Lewis, Romeo, Shell, Smith, etc. Come to think of it, I think he might be the same way with black NBA front office guys.

I don't think he's ever really blasted Marvin Lewis, Crennel, or Morris that much.

Lewis was on Hard Knocks and so there was legit material on him (just like Philbin) where you get the feeling that the guy isn't a great coach.

Morris was not trashed at all really, but used as an example of being replaced by a competent coach like Schiano (there might be something there) a la Harbaugh replacing Singletary. I don't think there was really ever anything interesting about Morris.

Caldwell, Shell, and Lovie Smith has been running jokes in their own ways, particularly the former two.

Caldwell did NOTHING ever at any point in time and it was easy to make fun of for being a stooge.

Singletary was an obvious one because he made himself a big target as an awful coach/loudmouth who didn't have the sway of a Rex Ryan or even the media savvy to do that: also Rex Ryan is a genuinely great defensive coach...and a player's coach. I don't know what the fuck Singletary is: maybe he'd be good at the college level with the rah-rah bullshit as a motivator. There's plenty of tough-talking guys like that (Saban) that don't work out at the pro level.

he hasn't ever targeted Vikings' Frasier (not an interesting target) or Tomlin (comptetent/awesome)

I just think that it's a crapfest for...

-GM's/front office/ownership

-coaches

There's a handful of competent guys there...and even their moves get criticised harshly because there's higher expectations. People get made fun of.

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Just want to preface this by saying you totally might be right. I can imagine that it's just a coincidence and there's not even a subconscious favoritism that doesn't give black leaders the benefit of the doubt. But I really want to get to this...

That's fair, but still, the defense you're making as if there is any truth to this is dumb. He's blasted everybody generally. 'Oh, no. Bill Simmons blasted another black coach/GM. Racism.' Fuck off. There's some justified shit to trashing Bill Simmons that I can understand. Then there's the part that he isn't as good he used to be (I'd agree). I'll naturally disagree with people on some shit...but this? I don't see how anybody can say that shit when he's making fun of generally everybody. Just move on because there's no merit to what you're saying.

Again, of course Simmons is going to complain about a ton of people. You know that I know this.

There are more white people than black people in this country. There are far more white people in sports leadership roles than black people. If Bill Simmons complained about white people 5 times more than he complained about black people, but there are 20 times more white people in sports leadership roles than black people, there is a disproportionate amount of criticism going on. That was my point. It doesn't matter how many times you mention Kahn, Dolan, Ainge, Morey or whoever. It doesn't address the issue at hand and I've tried to explain that already.

I don't think he's ever really blasted Marvin Lewis, Crennel, or Morris that much.

Here is the quote on Raheem Morris from today:

Let's start with their coaching upgrade. In baseball, they have a stat called "Wins Above Replacement" (WAR), which tries to determine every player's value as it relates to the least-talented player possible for his position. We couldn't create this statistic for NFL head coaches, but if we did, it would definitely be called "Wins Above Raheem Morris" (WARM)

So not only does Simmons not understand what WAR is (your assumption about WAR was right, his was wrong; WAR isn't about the worst player it's about an average player) he thinks Raheem Morris is the worst coach possible. He's even said as much on podcasts. The worst coach Cassidy. How does he justify that when Morris won 10 games with a terrible TB team?

When Crennel was the interim coach for the Chiefs at the end of last season, he said he couldn't wait for him to get hired so he could bet against him. Crennel and Morris both had 10 win seasons with bad teams. The fact that Romeo Crennel won 10 games with the Cleveland Browns should earn him at least some respect. I don't know why Simmons singles him out.

There's a handful of competent guys there...and even their moves get criticised harshly because there's higher expectations. People get made fun of.

Right. My only claim was that Simmons makes fun of black coaches and managers at a much higher rate than white people. That's not even an opinion. It's a fact. If I said he was racist that would be an opinion, but I never said that. I just said it was awkward.

Steve Spagnuolo won 2 games last year with St. Louis. Second worst record in the league. Spagnuolo gets hired to be the Saints D-Coordinator and Simmons says it's a "huge upgrade for the Saints" on his podcast. I've never heard him rant about Spagnuolo. Never heard him even mention Pat Shurmur who won 4 games last year with the Browns (worse than Crennel). But every single black coach who doesn't perform well, he comments on.

Edited by fellside

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has he really kicked Raheem Morris' ass that much?

I feel like I listen to his podcasts a much as you do, but he's barely mentioned.

I just feel like he was mentioned to use his theory the way Mike Singletary was replaced (a tough-talking coach) by a generally competent one.

I don't feel like Schiano is on Harbaugh's level though.

Eric Mangini did as mediocre as Romeo Crennel has with the Jets/Browns...but he's going to get made fun of too...even if having met him/had him on his podcast changes that.

Fuck, Brad Childress led the Vikings to a Championship Game, but he was being ragged on the whole time...because he does suck as a head coach.

It's not awkward to me at all, it just feels like you were looking for something that wasn't there to begin with.

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Just want to preface this by saying you totally might be right. I can imagine that it's just a coincidence and there's not even a subconscious favoritism that doesn't give black leaders the benefit of the doubt. But I really want to get to this...

That's fair, but still, the defense you're making as if there is any truth to this is dumb. He's blasted everybody generally. 'Oh, no. Bill Simmons blasted another black coach/GM. Racism.' Fuck off. There's some justified shit to trashing Bill Simmons that I can understand. Then there's the part that he isn't as good he used to be (I'd agree). I'll naturally disagree with people on some shit...but this? I don't see how anybody can say that shit when he's making fun of generally everybody. Just move on because there's no merit to what you're saying.

Again, of course Simmons is going to complain about a ton of people. You know that I know this.

There are more white people than black people in this country. There are far more white people in sports leadership roles than black people. If Bill Simmons complained about white people 5 times more than he complained about black people, but there are 20 times more white people in sports leadership roles than black people, there is a disproportionate amount of criticism going on. That was my point. It doesn't matter how many times you mention Kahn, Dolan, Ainge, Morey or whoever. It doesn't address the issue at hand and I've tried to explain that already..

Yeah, there should be more black leaders, coaches, and exectives in sports given that most the coaches are, in fact, black.

because the ONE sport where it feels like things are more equal and ahead of the curve is professional sports

(well, like I said, D1 college football isn't)

But I feel like maybe you're noticing the black coaches more than the white ones.

because the barbs thrown at guys like Raheem and others were throw-away ones because he's given it to everybody at some point in time except for maybe the most competent of teams, but we've spent more time on other guys that have been there for awhile that are established.

and then the guys who have been trashed that are throwaway mentions like Raheem Morris (Gary Kubiak)

fuck, even Jeff Fisher got trashed in that column and he's been one of the better coaches for a long time and one of the longest tenured coaches with the Titans.

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has he really kicked Raheem Morris' ass that much?

I feel like I listen to his podcasts a much as you do, but he's barely mentioned.

I just feel like he was mentioned to use his theory the way Mike Singletary was replaced (a tough-talking coach) by a generally competent one.

I don't feel like Schiano is on Harbaugh's level though.

Yes, he has singled Morris out like that. It started in his first year as Tampa Bay's head coach. And I gave you the full quote in context. He said "worst player possible". He never uses the term "competent" like you said. You interpreted that yourself.

Simmons didn't think Singletary was competent. He was just a hard on him.

It's not awkward to me at all, it just feels like you were looking for something that wasn't there to begin with.

I feel like I've provided substantial evidence to show that there was something there to begin with. And I believe I should have enough credibility with you for you to know I don't just go looking for people to be unfair racially. It's never come up.

But if you don't buy what I'm saying, do a test.

Just Google "Bill Simmons ____" and insert black coaches from teams with losing records. See if you find a lot of results (you will). Then type in "Bill Simmons ___" and enter guys like Pat Shurmur, Ken Whisenhunt or Steve Spagnuolo. Guys who have had terrible seasons. See if anything comes up.

Yes he criticizes plenty of white coaches. But he sure does seem to miss a lot of them as well. But if a black coach is even mediocre it seems Simmons will have an opinion on them.

I'll drop the issue now because it was just meant to be a little post about an observation I had today. I kept on this argument because you called my post retarded and I'm a proud asshole.

Edited by fellside

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how many times do you think he's said 'worst coach' in the league as an exaggerated effect ?

We know guys like Norv, Andy Reid, and others are good coaches who maybe shouldn't be Head Coaches or have their limitations.

More time has been spent on those guys.

But we don't know about Raheem since he's so young/unproven and it's one of the first times he's really been mentioned...and he's easy to use as an example because he got fired and Schiano is possibly a promising coach.

Whisenhunt's a solid coach who just doesn't have a good QB...and was a coach for the Steelers

Spagnula is an awesome coach who went to a bad team, is proven (DC for the Giants in '07)

but there's nothing juicy there to really write on (see: Gary Kubiak)

He's trashed on them, but he hasn't really gone back to them that much...and he hasn't really even done that with Raheem Morris either.

Guys like Pat Schurmur haven't been mentioned because there's really nothing to talk about.

I'm stealing from Drew Magary's Jambaroo but these are the coaches likely to be fired this season going in

• Andy Reid*

• Norv Turner*

• Leslie Frazier*

• Jason Garrett*

• Mike Shanahan

• Chan Gailey

• Rex Ryan*

• Romeo Crennel

• Lovie Smith*

• Mike Smith

• Ken Whisenhunt

• Marvin Lewis

• Pete Carroll

• Pat Shurmur

Romeo, Chan, Pat, Ken, Mike Smith just don't stand out for me to really go on in detail about.

Mike Smith did get harped on as having the worst call of all of last season and doing it multiple times I believe.

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Ha. No.

but who are you going to fire him for?

Scott Pioli made a mistake with Todd Haley, so he settled for the next best thing: having one of his own guys, a former DC, Romeo Crennel be the coach.

He's a good DC, but not a Head Coach...and a lot of guys coaching are like that.

I'm saying Romeo doesn't stand out as a guy to be mocked really because the other guys are easier to make fun of and feel like developed characters.

He's boring.

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I'm never more excited for a B.S. report than I am the day after the Patriots lose a playoff game.

 

(well, actually I was more excited when the Lakers beat the Celtics in game 7, but he wussed out and never did one)

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Yes Bill Simmons, if there's anything ESPN needs it's more baseless speculation with no intelligence behind it.

I got douche chills at the part where he talks about First Take and how it would get millions of views on YouTube if it happened like that.

If you're fed up with a lack of reporting on PED's... maybe the company should actually do some investigative reporting instead of concluding that the answer is to just start accusing people without reason.

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I don't really give a shit about Simmons' NFL columns

they usually blow

plus, he gives you his thoughts in his podcasts

chances are, if you listen to his podcasts and then come around to his columns later, what he says is spoiled for you anyway and makes his columns kind of suck.

 

wasn't a fan of the column

but

I get his point completely

 

just about every athlete in sports that we like is cheating and using some form of PED's

not sure if anybody cares

but it sucks to look at a record and be like, 'shit, it's tainted'

But I do think everybody privately does think that Ray Lewis and Adrian Peterson (and others) were using something, even before it came out in the last 2 weeks about Ray Lewis' deer spray.

but in the NFL?

It's hard to get busted for PED's and you just assume that everybody is doing something.

and it's hard to really care given it's a gladiator sport that costs people lives in the long-term.

if a guy is injured and takes something to get back?

I'm for it, as long as they don't come back playing better than they ever did.

and that's kind of what Adrian Peterson did.

Wes Welker came back about as fast as Peterson did, but he was okay in 2010 (still way better than expected to be)

He came back into form completely in 2011.

Peterson, however, just absolutely shattered every thought of how you could come back from an ACL tear in a way that doesn't make sense.

it's because he's an all-time great athlete

...but...

so was Bo Jackson and he never came back from his torn hip, so wtf?

at the same time, I side with Adrian Peterson coming back naturally over Ray Lewis because fuck Ray Lewis, that annoying fucking asshole.

 

with all that said, PED's do kind of enhance how we enjoy sports.

Adrian Peterson chasing the record? awesome

McGwire/Sosa? saved baseball after the strike...and it's basically dead again right now (the shitty fucking NFL Pro Bowl that everybody thinks is dog shit so much so that the league was thinking about canceling, got more fucking ratings than Game 7 of the World Series)

 

I'm for PED's if it's actually healthy

but I don't think anybody is well-informed enough about HGH and shit to know.

someday hopefully, but it's just weird.

 

I think writing for ESPN Grantland would be awesome in ways

but tough in ways, because it's still ESPN

and a guy as big as Simmons I could understand thinking how he would have to write/think about things as an ESPN guy

it would just be more fun if he wasn't on ESPN and could go off a bit on his own company which is basically a monopoly

you can't talk about sports without talking about ESPN and its impact.

but the creative control he gets to have on ESPN, I can understand, makes everything totally worth it

the group of writers he has and has had on that site is ridiculous.

He can't go to Deadspin and do something there

so Grantland is still a part of ESPN.

 

...but...

I don't think people really look at ESPN as a place for groundbreaking info when a place like Deadspin was doing some of the assignments that should have been followed up on by bigger places.

maybe ESPN is too beholden to athletes and the sports to come after guys.

 

----------------------------------------------------

I hate Chris Berman, Stuart Scott, and all that shit. They are insufferable.

but Rick Reilly's column this week on Colin Kaepernick was the fucking worst.

 

I can understand how completely outraged/pissed off Simmons was behind-the-scenes, and it came out a bit in public, over Reilly getting a significantly bigger contract than he got.

and then he ended up being a complete bust, fool, and a became a big fucking joke.

it's like this: the New England Patriots, in the salary cap era, prefer to pay their own guys rather than opening up the bank to someone outside their locker room because doing that would just piss off the guys who worked INSIDE that locker room. If guys like Wilfork, Brady, Mankins, Gronkowski, Hernandez got paid? They deserved it. Adalius Thomas? Fuck and no. Randy Moss, Corey Dillon, Aqib Talib? Make them earn it before signing them big.

I think that comparison is similar to what happened with Simmons: he did all that work for ESPN, helped carry them to the forefront (at least online and in writing) and still got shafted by someone mostly irrelevant to the new era (and anybody else in the new generation could see that before Reilly went to ESPN...although I don't think anybody expected him to make this big of an ass out of himself)

 

Simmons might be insufferable in SOME ways and easy to mock

and he might overextend his hand (podcasts/NBA studio show/website/30 for 30)

but you would never say he's mailing it in or lacking in ambition.

I don't know how much he is involved in with Grantland exactly 

ESPN has become such a joke, especially the last half-decade or so in ways that make people notice more and more 

but Simmons has undoubtedly been involved in the best things ESPN has been a part of: 30 for 30 and Grantland

the latter is still raw, but it's doing interesting work that I don't think could be done on ESPN.com or even on Page 2.

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More players in the NFL than not are using PED's.  The percentage is probably closer to 100 - 0 than 50-50.  

 

Ray Lewis > Adrian Peterson.  I think the people saying Adrian Peterson didn't use PED's to come back are the same people who think Sammy Sosa was clean, santa is real, etc.  

 

I don't think Simmons has over extended anything at ESPN.  Grantland, 30 for 30, his podcast and NBA Gametime are the only things I like about ESPN.  Fuck ESPN.

 

I'm convinced Simmons has become a closet Lakers fan.  The Lakers hate seems so manufactured now.  I think the real hate is gone.   

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I kind of agree with Marty. The weird thing is, if he had to drop anything off that list, I think the articles would be the easiest to lose. The podcasts are great and he's been the first guy to make an ESPN pregame show interesting that I can remember.

Ron Ron, the problem I have with what you said is that it's completely baseless. There's no way you could possibly have an accurate notion of what NFL players are doing so it's pointless to put a number on it. It sounds like a conversation a 14 year old sports fan would have.

I don't think journalists have a right to start slandering athletes until they've actually done their job and investigated the matter. And hats off to any innocent athlete who sues sports writers for doing so.

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I kind of agree with Marty. The weird thing is, if he had to drop anything off that list, I think the articles would be the easiest to lose. The podcasts are great and he's been the first guy to make an ESPN pregame show interesting that I can remember.

Ron Ron, the problem I have with what you said is that it's completely baseless. There's no way you could possibly have an accurate notion of what NFL players are doing so it's pointless to put a number on it. It sounds like a conversation a 14 year old sports fan would have.

I don't think journalists have a right to start slandering athletes until they've actually done their job and investigated the matter. And hats off to any innocent athlete who sues sports writers for doing so.

 

it's kind of weird to NOT pose the question: 'is Ray Lewis doping?' when there is zero evidence to say he isn't since the guys aren't really getting tested and that it's really strange that both he and Terrell Suggs suffered really bad injuries. Suggs tore his Achilles in the Spring and that would end a season right there. No. He comes back. Then he tears his triceps. The motherfucker is still playing. Something isn't right. Especially when I heard, 'if he doesn't get surgery real soon, like in a week or two, the muscle will never fully heal ever.'

because in private and even in blogs, people are posing those questions.

and during Super Bowl week, everybody knew those questions were going to be asked before the deer spray shit came to light.

 

but yeah, Simmons...

I like the mailbags (for that matter, I enjoy Drew Magary's Funbag on Deadspin & Matt Ufford's Sex & Fantasy Football Mailbag; mailbags are easy/safe) and I like it when he puts a lot of thought into a column or when something important happens (especially in basketball). Expecting him to do it on a weekly basis (especially during football week) just isn't right.

A lot of his material/thoughts and which way he might lean are spoiled and/or wasted in podcasts.

 

I haven't been watching the NBA much this year and haven't watched Simmons in the studio much at all.

but is the chemistry good?

I didn't think their roles were defined and Simmons was hesitant to throw his weight around/make jokes.

I don't expect it to be like Inside the NBA with Barkley where you just knew it was going to be classic

I kind of wish Jacoby would get involved: when you watch Grantland clips of him + Jalen Rose, it's real fun and you know that Jacoby would make anything better.

He needs to stand out more, even in the background as a go-to side guy to spice it up.

I don't know what former player they could bring in if you were to that is on his way out: Rasheed?

 

I'd always prefer to watch Barkley and Inside the NBA over anything.

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So...incredibly lame brag here, but I got a kick out of it- so maybe some of you will too...

I've been on vacation so forgot to tell you guys about this after it happened...

 

During the first Chargers game of the year when they were blowing it, Simmons tweeted something about that "Norv Turner guy blowing it again...wait what?", and I replied to him "The Ghost of Norv".

THEN in his column the next week he mentioned how San Diego fans are talking about the "Ghost of Norv" and he actually believed it.

So hey!  I very indirectly was mentioned in a Bill Simmons column.

 

....possibly.

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Hahahaha and there you have it.  I said, "The Ghost of Norv haunts this place" after the game to a couple of the cool Chargers fans in the stadium that day.  (They'd asked to take a pic with me before the game... One was wearing a Scifres jersey so I knew he was just a legit football fan.)   

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They'd asked to take a pic with me before the game... One was wearing a Scifres jersey so I knew he was just a legit football fan cheap bastard who bought the punters jersey at some discount store because nobody else outside of his family would buy it.)   

 

Fixed!

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