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Dodgerbolt

Rebuilding a Team

24 posts in this topic

I'm mostly talking about NFL/NBA/MLB, and I get that it's different in each sport- but I've always wondered:

 

Why are teams so reluctant to do this?  I understand the need to sell tickets and that there's always a chance when a new season starts, but:

 

 

Wouldn't 1-2 bad years and then 3-5 great years bring better financial returns than 7 mediocre years?

 

And don't fans start to get fed up of being irrelevant after a certain period?  Aren't up and coming players more exciting than a few decent vets and mediocre draft picks?

 

Does anyone have any insight to this #s wise?  Strictly from a financial perspective is what I'm curious about.  it must not be a great business model- either that or the guys who own these teams egos are so big that they refuse to be horrible even for a couple seasons?

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NBA:  I think owners look at the Kings, Bobcats, Pistons, T'Wolves, etc and fear that they will end up in the same situation.  GM's and owners worry that there are only one or two franchise players ever couple of years and you aren't even guaranteed a top 3 pick if you're the worst team in the league.

 

My response is that those franchises continue to suck because they've had horrible front offices.  If you can't collect young talent in the NBA lottery over several years, your management is terrible.

 

The NBA model is clear:  Suck enough to get a top 5 pick 2-3 years in a row.... Draft well... don't waste salary space on role players.

 

 

MLB:  Now that the MLB trend is to not let good players make it to free agency, drafting well and scouting prospects is more important than ever.  I think most baseball teams understand this.  Only a few clubs like the Phillies seem to not know when to rebuild.

 

 

No clue on what to do in the NFL.  So many positions to fill... it's exhausting.

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Seems to me the NFL model is what the 9ers and Seahawks have done lately....get a tough D, great running game, and find a cheap QB later in the draft...so that requires a lot of top 3 picks.  If I were running a team I'd do my best to stock up on 2nd and 3rd rounders, and definitely take the best player available with my 1st rounder.  And it would be rare that I would bring in a big name FA with a huge contract.

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I think teams are reluctant to rebuild because GMs want to keep their jobs, as do coaches, so they search for a few short term wins instead of rebuilding for the long haul.  I know that isn't always true, but I think it is in the back of their minds.

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In the NFL you don't need to dump everyone and go into "rebuild mode" like you might have to with the NBA. All it takes is the right coaching staff in the NFL and you can go from scrub to champion in 2 years. Coaching is more important in the NFL than in any other sport and it shows when you see teams turn from being 3-13 to winning a Superbowl just 2 years later (New Orleans Saints).

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The Jazz managed to rebuild without completely tanking because Kevin O'Connor is a genius, add in Dennis Lindsey and I think we have the best FO in the league..... too bad we're Utah and nobody will sign here. We're now completely in the running to have Wiggins for 4 years before he goes for a bigger city.

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I think teams are reluctant to rebuild because GMs want to keep their jobs, as do coaches, so they search for a few short term wins instead of rebuilding for the long haul.  I know that isn't always true, but I think it is in the back of their minds.

 

yeah, NBA more than anything is the most problematic because GM's in that sport are more desperate to make moves that don't make much sense or are desperate because they are worried about their job

 

Laker fans have had  a ridiculous degree of success.

Even the Celtics basically went 20 years of being irrelevant in ways the Lakers have never dealt with (5 missed playoffs in their tenure)

 

Rule for any sport

don't blow your draft picks or trade them out.

 

NFL

-stockpile on both sides of the line and build from there/build strength on strength/have an identity 

if you play in a dome, you probably have a high-flying offense (Kurt Warner's Rams; Falcons; Saints)

if you don't you're doing it wrong.

 

the team generally rallies around those strengths that they know they have and have a certain confidence.

a lot of would-be contenders (Texans; Bengals)

 

Giants have done a good job w/ building up their D-Line.

Lions are an interesting case with drafting Fairley (eh) and now Ziggy Ansah to replace Avril/Vanden Douche. They've been banking on their D-Line to be their strength for awhile but have had setbacks.

don't have a shitty owner

...see...

Redskins (Dan Snyder)

Cowboys (Jerry Jones)-got in Jimmy Johnson's way

Al Davis (Raiders)-when he went senile

Woody Johnson (Jets)

Mike Brown (Bengals)-notoriously cheap

NFL is a constantly evolving game-go with the changes and be adaptable

defenses, schemes, rule changes, everything

-get a good QB/Coach (Jim Harbaugh coming to the 49ers was a game changer)

a lot of this is just luck.

Maybe finding the right QB is a crapshoot but far too many teams go after awful QB's that never had a chance of being good for a variety of reasons (Gabbert; Tebow; Weeden; JaMarcus; Brady Quinn)

For instance, if you aren't completing 60% of your passes the way Jake Locker/Brady Quinn WEREN'T in college, that's a red flag that you will fucking suck.

 -depth management (injuries are a part of the game)

I love watching the Pats build their team in the offseason.

They make a few mistakes, but they make a good attempt at building depth, however impossible that may be

don't overpay someone who isn't worth it (Joe Flacco alert)

so Flacco made us all eat shit...but he's still Joe Flacco.

He basically got paid more than anybody and cost the Ravens keeping a lot of core guys

he fucked that team in the long run.

 

...at the same time...

Ozzie Newsom is one of the best GM's in the league, learned at the hand of Belichick in Cleveland.

I LOVE what he's done even as he lost some key guys (Boldin; Ellerbe; Ray Lewis; Ed Reed; Bernard Pollard).

they gained Arthur Brown, Matt Elam, Dumervil

Ngata, Suggs, and Lardarius Webb should come back healthier.

 

and, to be honest, Ray Lewis had nothing to give last year.

Ed Reed probably should retire with his injuries and there was no better way for him to go out.

He's been banged up chronically like Charles Woodson for awhile now and he's gotten away with it so far.

-salary cap matters: pull a Belichick and assign value to certain positions

Pats didn't budge with Welker, Ty Law, Asante, Willie McGinest, Randy Moss, Richard Seymour, Deion

a lot of these guys were past their prime or just were CB's (Asante; Law) and expendable.

Deion could have helped the Pats in '06 since the Pats nearly would have won that year with Reche Caldwell/Jabar Gaffney

 

It sucked to see those guys go, but ultimately, he was right.

got to hit on your draft picks and bring in contributors

Pats, as a contender, had HORRIBLE drafts from '06-'09. It cost them dearly.

I think the Rams didn't have anybody on their roster that was a draft pick from 2009-2010 during the 2012 season or some shit. I might be wrong on that one. Just a shitty draft record.

Balanced offense combo

Anquan Boldin (versatile)/Torrey Smith (Speed)

Hakeem Nicks (versatile)/Victor Cruz (Speed)

Randy Moss (freak)/Wes Welker (quick)

 

Packers/Saints had good combo of that too.

49ers could use another WR...but man...Kaepernick was a scary freak if he just decided to run the ball. He'll have to become more of a pocket QB but they would have won th eSB if they just ran the fucking ball inside that goal line.

you don't have to have a great running game at all

you can have a RB-by-committee type thing.

the 2011 Patriots/Giants were some of the league's worst RB's (but I thought, as a group, they each did the job)

ditto for the 2010 Packers.

don't overpay FA's

-Raiders 

-Redskins

beware of guys playing in a contract year OR guy that squeezed out as a depth casualty

...see...

Mark Anderson (Pats to Bills); Aaron Kampman (Packers to Jags); Mario Williams (Texans to Bills)

 

the Browns signing Paul Kruger kind of reminds me of Mark Anderson.

don't give up 1st round picks/overpay for shit (usually QB's)

Raiders giving up high picks for Carson fucking Palmer

Browns overpaying for a severely washed-up Jake Delhomme

if you have a star WR with NOBODY to throw to him, you should probably trade your star WR

-Larry Fitzgerald (Cardinals)

-Calvin Johnson (Lions)-Stafford can throw but Calvin is the only weapon

-Andre Johnson (Texans)

-Randy Moss (Raiders)

-Steve Smith (Panthers)

 

what I'm saying is that you get the QB first THEN you worry about the explosive WR help and adjust accordingly. 

a lot of the best WR's in the game arrived in situations that were already fucking great.

maybe I'm wrong/biased on this: but I just hate seeing amazing WR's waste their primes in shitty situations.

a lot of franchises just shoot their load going after the playmaker when they don't have the help.

Rebuilding projects I liked in the NFL recently

NFC West (Seahawks; 49ers; Rams)

 

Colts -got lucky obviously going from Manning to Luck

shed over-the-hill guys...keeping Reggie Wayne was awesome though for the confidence of Luck

HALF-LIKED

Rex Ryan's Jets

Bad owner-feel like he might have got steamrolled by the owner and second-guessed him with getting Tebow.

but he did the right thing in building up that defense.

but he might have maximized himself with his familiarity with the Ravens (bringing over Leonhard; Bart Scott) and then when he couldn't do that with other guys.

 

he's a great defensive mind...just not a Head Coach.

SITTING STILL: San Diego Chargers

wtf did they do? 

They sat still with a shitty coach for way too long who had already proved that he was NOT a head coach in this league (Norv)

They never fired a shitty/cocky/shit-talking GM (AJ Smith)

 

I need to read more shit on football

...but I'd suggest reading...

-Jeff Pearlman's Boys Will Be Boys: the Glory Days and Party Nights of the Dallas Cowboys Dynasty

-Michael Holley's the War Room: the Art of Building the Perfect Team

 

I feel like you could have written the death of the Pats a couple times over by now.

and, certainly, Hernandez being chargerd with murder could be the death knell for the Pats the way Michael Irvin stabbing a fucking teammate with scissors was because he cut him while getting a haircut.

It's fun to look at the highs and lows right there.

 

Holley's book looks at Scott Pioli (Chiefs), Belichick (Pats), and Thomas Demitrioff (Falcons).

I was never too high on Pioli.

but Demetrioff comes across well and ultimately his gamble for trading up to get Julio Jones was great (Belichick was wrong in saying 'you could just have Jonathan Baldwin').

Falcons are a dome team, they maybe felt like they had a Super Bowl-caliber QB, they had Roddy White.

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fuck you!

being an armchair GM is my Sim City!

I could do it all fucking day

have an alien attack, Aaron Hernandez, or hurricane blow up the franchise

and start all over again

 

you have no idea how much I think about this in my head and go over it.

Dodgerbolt has no fucking idea what he started

Edited by Cassidy

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I hate all of you

 

I WILL KILL ALL OF YOUUUU

(damn it, I never saw this movie...but the 'I WILL KILL ALL OF YOU' quote that Benicio delivers is the first thing I thought of and it got cut out...but it's in the trailer)

 

anyways, go fuck yourselves

Edited by Cassidy

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You did mean the fearless David Carr-"led" Texans when referring to no one throwing to Andre, correct?  Schaub may have two left feet and make a bad decision or two, but don't be so god damned spoiled with Brady's greatness.  (It appears almost certain he had a shoulder injury in the 2nd half of 2012 season... the Texans have had a myriad of undisclosed injuries come to the surface over the last month.)  The 3 seasons with Schaub that AJ has played all 16 games are all 1569+ yard seasons, and he led the NFL in 2 (2008, 2009) of those 3, finishing 2nd last year behind Megatron's record-breaking season with no one throwing to him, either...apparently.  And in 2010, he led the NFL in Y/G in 13 games, so it's pretty safe to say he was on top then, too.  Same during Schaub's 1st season 2007 in 9 games.  Probably a little research, dude.

 

Look, I'm well-aware that there are better QBs out there than Matt Schaub.  However, if one Joe Flacco can win a Superbowl, then half of a Matt Schaub can win a Superbowl.  

 

I'll talk about building a contender in MLB another time, because I've lived through the Astros rebuilding in the early 90s, to being one of the winningest franchises for well over a decade with an envied farm system, to that same owner shifting philosophy and no longer valuing the draft, leaving my team with a GM who quit, a handful of bad contracts, big payroll, franchise icons who deserve better, and an absolutely gutted farm system.  Now there's a $25MM payroll and a farm system that has gone from worst to arguably first in 2 years.  Yet there's still no agreement this season for Astros games to be televised in their home market.  (Seriously.)

Edited by DK.

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At least Larry Fitzgerald had Anquan Boldin. Now, he hasn't had a QB since Kurt Warner retired.

Andre Johnson hasn't really had an adequate 2nd WR. That's what makes it feel like a waste and Lion fans have to feel that a bit with Calvin Johnson.

otherwise, obviously, they're much closer to greatness than the Lions are.

 

I'm still not a Schaub fan though and it isn't being spoiled by Brady at all.

I'm stunned that Flacco won a Super Bowl but the Ravens finally got him the offense he should have had and he delivered.

He didn't have any turnovers in the playoffs

he's got a dangerous arm.

The closest comparison to him is Eli Manning in 2007.

Maybe he shocks us all the way Eli did in 2011 by backing up the 'I belong with the elite' talk and pulling off awesome comeback after awesome comeback.

I kind of doubt that though.

Flacco, I think, now has the most road wins of any starting QB in the playoffs ever, if I'm not mistaken.

Hes 28 while Schaub is 32 and he kind of is what he is. It's not really shitting on Schaub or anything but he's in that Matt Hasselbeck zone right now.

 

I think the Cardinals might have had a good draft and are going to change things a bit.

but by the team they rebuild will Larry Fitzgerald still be good? He'll be 30 when the season starts.

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Yo my name's J Smoove ya'll.  Taking my talents to motor city ya'll.  Hey when I'm not holding the ball and taking outside shots from another area code, you can see me put up rebound numbers that will surely impress (if I was a 2 guard). 

 

Hey but the good news is, when I'm on the court, I make Greg Monroe look like David Robinson.

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Definitely not trying to turn this into the Joe Flacco/Ravens thread, but I don't believe he costed the team quite as much as his contract might initially suggest. In terms of who they lost on defense, everyone knew the old guys were ready to move on, despite how dearly beloved they will always be in Baltimore...and the other guys (Ellerbe, Kruger) got way overpaid, which is why the Dolphins and the Browns are the Dolphins and the Browns. They will be allowed to take a hike on those terms every time, and rightfully so. Aside from that, the way Flacco's contract is structured makes it so the team won't take significant hits on cap space for 3 years, at which point the deal will most likely be restructured to once again suit the needs of both parties. And despite the losses they took with defensive starters, their new d is shaping up to be quite good thanks to some shrewd free agent acquisitions and a couple good draft picks, plus the return of Webb, which you mentioned, Cassidy (and I'm sure you heard what Michael Lombardi had to say on the BS Report last season regarding the value of blue chip nickel corners in today's NFL ).

 

And I suppose I contradicted myself somewhat by making fun of the Browns and then invoking the good points made by their new GM...but whatever.

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^yeah, that might be a good take on things.

it sucked that they had to lose Anquan Boldin too even if they are rebuilding a bit...and quickly..

 

Michael Lombardi is really smart on his takes, wrote a good column when he did write one.

the Paul Kruger signing was so dumb: he was great last season but there's too many red flags where that's a guy you don't sign.

I like them drafting Barkevious Mingo.

He got his QB (Brian Hoyer) and he obviously thinks Brandon Weeden is horrible.

Leon McFadden was a solid pick.

 

they will suck but they're going to be patient.

that's a tough division.

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yeah, that post was me going 'fuck, this isn't long, right'

hit 'post'

and 'shit'

fuck me.

 

whenever I get ganged up on here, rightfully this time for posting way too much, my mind kicks into overdrive into 'fuck you' mode

halfway between here:

 

and this

'FUCK YOU, GUYS! I AM WHO I AM! DEAL WITH IT!'

 

and then of course wanting to do this to all of you fucks

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You should be a blogger though, keep your posting style (with the videos and run-ons etc) and make it completely self depreciating humor like: the life of a virgin/sports nut/help me

 

Some people would find it extremely charming, you can get enough followers if you keep at it, then do something legit with it. I don't know, just a thought.

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